... though MU8 vs F13 is a whole different ballgame, of course.
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Limiting At-Will Powers
- Thread starter Fiskonian
- Start date
... though MU8 vs F13 is a whole different ballgame, of course.
a lvl 3 mage didn't travel alone he had friends to help him out and give him time to cast.
did you play 2nd edition mages had very wonderful spells and even the starting ones if used properly would ensure victory in a battle. Any prepared mage could have scrolls to read there spells from increasing the number of effects they could cast.
maybe in a crap dm's worlds but i made my world difficult just because you gained lvl 5 spells doesn't mean you have any or even know where to locate them. and after you locate a place to research them you might have to pay a high price to get to access to the wizards library. not to mention the time and resources i required to scribe it in to your spell book.
The reason in most world the mages reigned over powered and left the other members out is the tight grip DM's kept on magical gear. thieves and warriors gained power through equipment. and if a DM doesn't hand it out them it's up to the players and mages to commision the gear required to keep on even grounds.
the mages in my games created stuff for other party members. enchantmented their favorite helm. forged power rings.
i will keep to mage they seem more useful
Droogie128
First Post
i like this idea of giving more importance to basics, and bring them back to the norm, instead of just something isused only when granted a free action.
there are a few things that i think need to be implemented to make this posible however; i think that you would need to give a free melee training feat to all melee classes & invent a range alternative for ranged classes, include a basic attack for shaman's spirit companion/druids beast form etc. and allow use of a basic magic attack power for magic users. this does not have to be a magic missile type auto-hit, or an elderich blast or something, maybe just a re-fluffed ranged basic with something like 1/2 level+skill mod+weapon enhancement attack bonus vs will or fort, with like 1d8+skill mod damage?
And then to get players to actually use them, i think players would respond to there basics pimped rather than there powers being gimped. maybe a system where you alow them to aim basics (and not powers, because they are already fluffed) at curtain parts of the enemy, and apply an attack modifier and then an extra effect to the attack. a couple of examples:
1) joe the elf ranger wanted to go for a headshot, you could give him a -2 attack (because of the difficultly of hitting a small target like the head, compared to trying to just hit) and giving him a damage increase, maybe another damage dice.
2) dave the fighter is fighting a particularly annoying goblin thief who keeps running around the room, and manages to catch up to him long enough to make an attack, and so he decided to go for the thief legs, at a -1 attack for and additional effect of slowed (save ends).
im sure that you and your players will thing of more.
i haven't really used this system in play (except for a few instances where my party wanted to attack something in particular (an magical amulet a necromancer had i think) so the DM decided to make us use basics to do so. i think this is the way to go if your thinking about trying to make basics as players are less likely to complain if you give them something, or improve something they have rather than weakening/limiting/removing things that they have already got directly.
there are a few things that i think need to be implemented to make this posible however; i think that you would need to give a free melee training feat to all melee classes & invent a range alternative for ranged classes, include a basic attack for shaman's spirit companion/druids beast form etc. and allow use of a basic magic attack power for magic users. this does not have to be a magic missile type auto-hit, or an elderich blast or something, maybe just a re-fluffed ranged basic with something like 1/2 level+skill mod+weapon enhancement attack bonus vs will or fort, with like 1d8+skill mod damage?
And then to get players to actually use them, i think players would respond to there basics pimped rather than there powers being gimped. maybe a system where you alow them to aim basics (and not powers, because they are already fluffed) at curtain parts of the enemy, and apply an attack modifier and then an extra effect to the attack. a couple of examples:
1) joe the elf ranger wanted to go for a headshot, you could give him a -2 attack (because of the difficultly of hitting a small target like the head, compared to trying to just hit) and giving him a damage increase, maybe another damage dice.
2) dave the fighter is fighting a particularly annoying goblin thief who keeps running around the room, and manages to catch up to him long enough to make an attack, and so he decided to go for the thief legs, at a -1 attack for and additional effect of slowed (save ends).
im sure that you and your players will thing of more.
i haven't really used this system in play (except for a few instances where my party wanted to attack something in particular (an magical amulet a necromancer had i think) so the DM decided to make us use basics to do so. i think this is the way to go if your thinking about trying to make basics as players are less likely to complain if you give them something, or improve something they have rather than weakening/limiting/removing things that they have already got directly.
and on the mage's usefulness front, if your wizard is just sat there casting magic missile, ofcorse they suck, i play a level 3 wizard in one of my 4ed games, and have found countless ways to use cantrips in a combat situation, from using mage hand to deal touch efects, using prestidigitation to set out the flames on out warlock (ongoing fire damage), heat up our fighters blade with prestidigitation to add a fire keyword (i rolled an arcana check to see if i could just heat up the blade and not the handle, hurting our tank), ready an action to tap a guy on the shoulder just before someone attacked them (magehand) to give them combat advantage, a similar thing with ghost sound, undo a chandelier with magehand, harrier familiar my tiny gelatinous cube familiar onto the bowstring of a goblins bow to snap it, ready an action to cast light in an enamys face as they are about to atack our fighter... and thats just the last few encounters...
i might have a lenient DM (well he makes me roll arcana check/whatever else he finds appropriate if its something he deems challenging/gamebreaking) but hes mostly under the impresion that if its something cool, and imaginative, but not gamebreaking, then players should be able to do it. of course i give up quite a few actions for these stunts, but its one of the things i find fun about playing.
i might have a lenient DM (well he makes me roll arcana check/whatever else he finds appropriate if its something he deems challenging/gamebreaking) but hes mostly under the impresion that if its something cool, and imaginative, but not gamebreaking, then players should be able to do it. of course i give up quite a few actions for these stunts, but its one of the things i find fun about playing.
what thats not anything that i said. i think you might want to reread what i said. and what i was refering to when i said it cause i was actually talking up the other classes and how they stay on equal ground with mages that can level a castle. i was only arguing the weakness and the blain other try to force on a mage due to his lvl
Alright, I see the points. What about limiting their at-wills by making them roll a d6? they can use an at-will on a roll of 4-6 so a 50/50 chance per turn... Maybe you can only use a power once before having to roll a 5 or 6 but your other at-wills can still be used in the mean time?
Or, what about sacrificing a move action to use a power during your attack action?
I feel both of these are more balanced between the classes and will naturally even out with the NPCs/Monsters following the same rules.
Or, what about sacrificing a move action to use a power during your attack action?
I feel both of these are more balanced between the classes and will naturally even out with the NPCs/Monsters following the same rules.
i dont think limeting there powers is the way to go, you need to give them insentive to use basics instead
this gimps monkes, there at wills are comprised of a move and a standard action, if you make them give up there move, they have just a weak standard, and giving up a minor is no good, that leaves tanks without a way to provoke, and leaders without an action to heal
the Jester
Legend
The whole point of at wills is that they are bread and butters. They are better than a basic because they are what you are good at.
Do what you want, but I wouldn't be interested in a 4e game where the at wills were not at will. They are one of 4e's best innovations imho.
Do what you want, but I wouldn't be interested in a 4e game where the at wills were not at will. They are one of 4e's best innovations imho.
