Limiting magic item use per day and "Milestones" = very bad

[Andor]

Yeah but is that simply because it's a new idea?

I mean when people first saw Hit Points, I wonder if people thought the idea that you could take multiple "hits" broke the 4th wall...

No. No we did not.

First we didn't really have the concept of the 4th wall at the time.

Secondly there is nothing inherantly silly about the concept of hitpoints. Nor it is ridiculous to think someone could take a 'hit' and live. That's why not all purple hearts are awarded posthumously for example.

There is an inherant lack of 'realism' in the D&D model of steadily inflating hitpoints and there are plenty of games that don't allow massive inflation in toughness of character for that reason.

So yes, plenty of us thought it was odd that a 10th level character could survive 100' falls. None of us thought it was because the PC had broken the 4th wall and borrowed the airbag from "Fallguy" however.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Nnno. Not unless they have been misrepresented. They are an award for picking a fight, right? If the story has them going to the ball to charm the baroness, but they need to pick a fight with a streetgang first to work up the mojo to use the widget of charm then the milestone mechanic is visibly detracting from the progress of the adventure.

This kind of arguments against 4e are becoming a real bane : Extreme interpretations of the rules to allow for absurd behaviours that make 4e looks bad when either the rules or actual gameplay do not support it.

In this case, it's both.

Rulewise : The DM has no obligation to keep to a 2 encounter per milestone ratio. He can award a milestone after a very tough encounter and refuse to count a trivial one. DMG p.123

Gamewise : Assuming the encounter is non trivial and the DM is thus willing to count it toward a milestone, then the heroes would still be idiots if they purposefully picked an additional encounter for the sole purpose of acquiring an action point. The many healing surges that they will lose in the process are worth more than the action points they'd gain. In my experience a team of 5 will lose over 10 surge against an appropriate challenge. Some less (A wizard who kept his nose clean) some more (A Fighter who kept the wizard's nose clean).

Early in the day, 10 surge for a party isn't worth much. But the thing is, if you delay meeting the BBG and go lose more surge on the way... By the third encounter, you are keeping a close tab on them.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Nnno. Not unless they have been misrepresented. They are an award for picking a fight, right? If the story has them going to the ball to charm the baroness, but they need to pick a fight with a streetgang first to work up the mojo to use the widget of charm then the milestone mechanic is visibly detracting from the progress of the adventure.

They aren't a reward for picking a fight. They are an acknowledgment that the "key" points in a story all happen around a conflict (i.e. an encounter). The important parts of a story are when: You need to convince the king to send his army to defend the town, when you fight off the assassination attempt against the king, when those monsters attack you in the woods on your way to see the king.

They want to help keep the story moving towards its conclusion and encourage the group to keep going without resting. So, you get a benefit that actually matters for your character when you do so. This means that they are unlikely to nova if the know there are 4 fights in a day instead of 1. Nova being "using all their most powerful abilities(i.e. dailies). It also forces them to be careful in combat in order to avoid using up all their healing surges.

Everyone from WOTC has said the rules also work best when given an in game reason to keep going as well: Kidnapped person will be killed after a certain time has elapsed, the portal will close at midnight, etc.

 

[The Little Raven]

Hit points don't break the fourth wall because they've become a genre convention, and are just a handy method of keeping track of damage or whatever.

"This is okay because it's tradition." Doesn't make it any less arbitrary.

Milestones don't seem to have any logical place in the world.

Well, that's why they're not a part of the world. They're a part of the game. Unless all the metagame constructs in the game are suddenly a part of the underlying reality of the world.

Encounter is fine, Daily is fine, milestone? It just seems like an arbitrary mechanic.

So, encounter is fine, but TWO encounters suddenly becomes arbitrary? Ummm...

For me, arbitrary mechanics break the fourth wall. Mechanics which are obviously supporting the genre don't.

So, a mechanic that rewards heroes for continuing to fight on and not stop and rest every time they get a scratch or use up some resources doesn't support the genre? Ummm...

 

[Andor]

This kind of arguments against 4e are becoming a real bane : Extreme interpretations of the rules to allow for absurd behaviours that make 4e looks bad when either the rules or actual gameplay do not support it.

In this case, it's both.

Rulewise : The DM has no obligation to keep to a 2 encounter per milestone ratio. He can award a milestone after a very tough encounter and refuse to count a trivial one. DMG p.123

Gamewise : Assuming the encounter is non trivial and the DM is thus willing to count it toward a milestone, then the heroes would still be idiots if they purposefully picked an additional encounter for the sole purpose of acquiring an action point. The many healing surges that they will lose in the process are worth more than the action points they'd gain. In my experience a team of 5 will lose over 10 surge against an appropriate challenge. Some less (A wizard who kept his nose clean) some more (A Fighter who kept the wizard's nose clean).

Early in the day, 10 surge for a party isn't worth much. But the thing is, if you delay meeting the BBG and go lose more surge on the way... By the third encounter, you are keeping a close tab on them.

If I misunderstood the rules that's one thing, I don't have the books as I mentioned. But where do action points come into it, and who cares about healing surges?

If I understand the rules once a PC has used a 1/day item he can no longer use any other 1/day item until he has passed a milestone yes? So if the PCs have a tough fight and each use a 1/day item they cannot use any more items until they hit a milestone and reset yes?

If the next thing on their agenda is a social encounter (where did you grab a BBG from?) at which they anticipate needing to use a magic item they are SOL unless they hit a milestone before the ball, are they not?

Why would they give a rat's patootie about healing surges at the Countesses ball?

It's exactly the same sort of forced intrusion of a metagame concept into actual in world decision making as a martial character knowing he can't pull off the Corsican fleché twice in one day, but he'll be fine if he waits 'till tomorrow.

 

[Intense_Interest]

It's exactly the same sort of forced intrusion of a metagame concept into actual in world decision making as a martial character knowing he can't pull off the Corsican fleché twice in one day, but he'll be fine if he waits 'till tomorrow.

Who ever said that the Mortals were in any way normal or mundane? Especially considering that Dwarfs would have exploding hearts as a feature of their anatomy.

Martial Power source only means that you don't have any outside forces causing your abilities. It doesn't mean that you can't use your own abilities, which are about as fantastic as any other fantasy race.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If the next thing on their agenda is a social encounter (where did you grab a BBG from?) at which they anticipate needing to use a magic item they are SOL unless they hit a milestone before the ball, are they not?

Is this actually different in any previous edition of D&D? I mean, it sounds like you're complaining that the players should think ahead to conserve resources they know they'll need later in the day.