Liquid's Alt. Sorcerer (Complete)

[Liquidsabre]

The idea [being able to draw strength from someone as they die] fits as much to someone with death running throught their veins as much as any cleric.

Oh I agree completely. Though spell selection was tiered as Core Arcane-FR Arcane-Core Divine spells and I tried to adhere to this method while choosing spells . If an appropriate spell existed in the first tier then that spell selection would take precedence over lower tiered spells. So Death Knell lost out to Darkvision, though Ghoul Touch was a definate contender as well, I tried to diversify the individual lists between the different schools. Note *tried*, let me know if you guys have any more suggestions for spells. It might even be better to switch out Chill Touch for Ray of Enfeeblement and have Darkvision switched out with Ghoul touch, but I kinda prefer having a "vision spell" in the selection for diversity.

I would change balance on the earth elemental to concentration (or restrict it to on solid surfaces) as it would count to tight ropes as well as mountain sides. If any elemental bloodline deserves balance it should be water, as water find it's own level.

Also I would not given Fey gather information, rather I would have given bluff. On the same idea disguise isn't the first thing I would have given to undead bloodline.

Yea, it's far from perfect what with Balance applying to many surfaces such as a rope or a beam but concentration is already a class skill for the Sorcerer. Perhaps another suggestion? Bluff is also already a class skill for the Sorcerer as well while Gather Info was the next charisma oriented skill that a fey would likely be rather good at. I also had my own reservations about the Perform skill for the Fire Elemental Bloodline.

Plus Arcanic would be better read as Archaic. Arcane does not mean magical it means old. Thaumaturgical would be better.

Arcane: adj. Known or understood by those with special knowledge.

Though when referring to magic in fantasy games The Arcane (magic) tends to be used as a noun, adding the -ic suffix makes this an adjective (yes, again lol). Arcanic is of course not a word but it seemed like a good idea at the time, though I could definately be wrong. Arcane should work just fine as an adjective for Bloodline though.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Here's a link to my website with a nice clean, easy to read version with tables and all:

Sorcerer Revised

Included is also the Battle Sorcerer version as well. Both players currently play-testing (in 2 different campaigns) really seem to be enjoying the Augment Familiar class ability and combining it with the Improved Familiar feat as well. Though I forsee potential problems arising with the selection of a medium-size improved familiar followed by a size increase, later at 15th an additional size increase (for a HUGE familiar) so I'll likely have to limit the Augment Familiar: Size Increase to Small size creatures or smaller.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think I understand what DC is saying, and if not, I'll point this out.

Lets say I want to cast Chill Touch more than once per day. From a meta-game standpoint I'd better not take the Deathtouched bloodline. It would be far more beneficial to take, say, the Fiendish bloodline so that I don't have to double up on Chill Touch. This hurts the roleplaying aspect of the bloodline, which, to me, is the main reason to create the variant in the first place.

I understand the balance concerns. It would be too powerful to add another known spell to their list, and it would be too constraining to force them to take a certain spell in their already limited known list.

 

[Matafuego]

I like it... I like it... I'll try to adapt it to My Campaign and let you know how it went...

 

[Liquidsabre]

I think I understand what DC is saying, and if not, I'll point this out.

Lets say I want to cast Chill Touch more than once per day. From a meta-game standpoint I'd better not take the Deathtouched bloodline. It would be far more beneficial to take, say, the Fiendish bloodline so that I don't have to double up on Chill Touch. This hurts the roleplaying aspect of the bloodline, which, to me, is the main reason to create the variant in the first place.

True, doubling up so-to-speak isn't the most advantageous strategy as far as playing a bloodline sorcerer goes but that's more from a metagame aspect. Roleplaying and theme-wise I think it's the better way to go (doubling-up known and bloodline spells) since being of the Deathtouched Bloodline and able to cast chill touch 6+/day (higher bloodline spell slots can be used to cast lower level bloodline spells as well) as opposed to a sorcerer of another bloodline's 5/day makes more sense from a roleplay POV.

Selecting a Bloodline and the list of spells has a primary and secondary purpose that is identical to the Cleric Domain spell selection process: [1] select a bloodline/domain spell list with spells you would not normally have access to and would like to use, though not on a regular basis, and [2] select a bloodline/domain spell list with spells you would like to cast more of.

A cleric will select a domain based on the spells in the spell list providing access to spells they normally don't have access to (spells that are normall arcane or druid spells) and spells in the spel list they would like to cast more of (such as the healing domain for more healing spells).

I think if folk give it a try they'll find the use of the arcane domain spells that arcane bloodline provides works pretty well in-game once you get a chance to use it. It's only a spontaneous version of the cleric domain spells in-concept and the use of casting higher-level bloodline spell slots for useful lower-level bloodline spells shouldn't be underestimated.

For Example: Fire Elemental Bloodline, why cast wall of fire when you need another fireball? No problem just use the bloodline spell slot (4th) to power a the bloodline spell of fireball (3rd). All without even having to select fireball as a sorcerer's known spell if perhaps going for an enchanting sorcerer-type with only the occasional need for a boom spell. Conversely you can go for the boomer sorcerer and select the Fire Elemental Bloodline and be able to cast even more boom/fire spells each day. Here's an example bloodline sorcerer spell list:

[SIZE=2]Bloodline Sorcerer 7[/SIZE] (Fire Elemental)
[B]1st[/B] - [I]mage armor[/I], [I]magic missle[/I], [I]ray of enfeeblement[/I], [I]shield[/I], [I]shocking grasp[/I], 
[COLOR=Red][I]burning hands[/I][/COLOR].

[B]2nd[/B] - [I]melf's acid arrow[/I], [I]mirror image[/I], [I]scorching ray[/I], [COLOR=Red][I]flame dagger[/I][/COLOR].

[B]3rd[/B] - [I]fly[/I], [I]lightning bolt[/I], [COLOR=Red][I]fireball[/I][/COLOR].

[B]4th[/B] - [COLOR=Red][I]wall of fire[/I][/COLOR].

I'd love to see others try building some of their own and posting them. Let me know what you like and don't like about the spell lists, man I'd love to hear it!


@Matafuego: Definately! Let me know how it goes and I'd also love to hear how you go about adapting the class to your camapign, new/different bloodlines perhaps? I've already added a couple such as the Shadow Bloodline, Ice Elemental Bloodline, Wood Elemental Bloodline, and Storm Bloodline for my own campaign, new Arcane Bloodlines are easy to make!


Recently, thanks to some good suggestions in other sorcerer threads I've also considered adding Spell Thematics at 4th level since it is very fittign for sorcerer's to possess (and flavorfull!). But I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not adding TOO much now to the sorcerer class. To me it appears to be alot of little things added to give the class flavor: Arcane Bloodline + (2) bloodline class skills, Eschew Materials+, (2) Augment Familiar, (2) bonus metamagic feats, and now adding Spell Thematics to boot?

Is this now adding too much to the class? Too much flavor?

 

[DreamChaser]

Selecting a Bloodline and the list of spells has a primary and secondary purpose that is identical to the Cleric Domain spell selection process: [1] select a bloodline/domain spell list with spells you would not normally have access to and would like to use, though not on a regular basis, and [2] select a bloodline/domain spell list with spells you would like to cast more of.

Because a cleric can choose a whole new set of spells each day to complement his/her domain spell, this comparison is flawed. (Aside from which, only a player who wanted to capture the feel of a "healer" style character would take a domain containing mostly spells that he could spontaneously cast anyway).

My ideas are to
1) make sure that all arcane domain spells are good, useful, appropriate spells. Many domain spells from the cleric domains focus on style over substance so that some levels are just plain week or limited in use.
2) make one spell per level of the sorcerer's spells be the domain spells. because the player chooses the domain and all the spells are effective and useful spells that are appropriate to the character concept, there is no weakness, simply focus.
3) stop tossing on every feat that seems like it might fit with a sorcerer concept. There are plenty of them.

just my 2 coppers

DC

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hey DC, nice to see you back!

Because a cleric can choose a whole new set of spells each day to complement his/her domain spell, this comparison is flawed. (Aside from which, only a player who wanted to capture the feel of a "healer" style character would take a domain containing mostly spells that he could spontaneously cast anyway).

Don't see you argument here though, the criteria for domain/bloodline selection is the same.

Domains for a cleric character will be selected either because they want access to a spell that they can't normally cast (such as mage armor, fly, teleport, etc.) and/or the domain will be selected for additional casting of cleric spells (such as protection from evil, entropic shield, flame strike, etc.).

A bloodline sorcerer will do the same. They will select a bloodline either because they want access to a spell they won't normally cast (because they don't plan to take it as a known spell) and/or the bloodline will be selected for additional casting of sorcerer spells (spells they plan on taking as known spells but want to be able to cast more of).

My ideas are to
1) make sure that all arcane domain spells are good, useful, appropriate spells. Many domain spells from the cleric domains focus on style over substance so that some levels are just plain week or limited in use.

2) make one spell per level of the sorcerer's spells be the domain spells. because the player chooses the domain and all the spells are effective and useful spells that are appropriate to the character concept, there is no weakness, simply focus.

Looks good, don't know if you've checked it out by I revamped most of the bloodline spells for the various bloodlines a few months back on my rpg-board. I don't think I have the updates posted here but the spell selection is quite good as well as flavorful. Naturally suggestions are always nice, especially for new bloodline spell lists.

3) stop tossing on every feat that seems like it might fit with a sorcerer concept. There are plenty of them.

Too true, and the purpose of my bringing it up. Any suggestions of what to keep and what to take out?

 

[DreamChaser]

Don't see you argument here though, the criteria for domain/bloodline selection is the same.

Domains for a cleric character will be selected either because they want access to a spell that they can't normally cast (such as mage armor, fly, teleport, etc.) and/or the domain will be selected for additional casting of cleric spells (such as protection from evil, entropic shield, flame strike, etc.).

Since, last I'd seen there are no spells in the sorcerer domains that aren't on the Sorc/Wiz list, the access to spells they couldn't otherwise get part is irrelevant.

On more casting aspect, if I'm a cleric of an Earth deity (and thus have the Earth domain) I can cast magic stone once per day if I choose. If I want to be able to do it more, no problem, I simply prepare it more. If I don't, then I don't. I have that option every single day.

But if I'm a sorcerer with the Deathtouched domain and I want to cast Ray of Enfeeblement more often I have to choose it as a spell which I am then stuck with.

These are not the same situation. A cleric's versatility makes domain spell slots feasible. The limitations of the sorcerer make it much less so.

Looks good, don't know if you've checked it out by I revamped most of the bloodline spells for the various bloodlines a few months back on my rpg-board. I don't think I have the updates posted here but the spell selection is quite good as well as flavorful. Naturally suggestions are always nice, especially for new bloodline spell lists.

I'd looked through them. If all the spells are good ones, and the domains are balanced with each other, then just make them the first spell known of each level. Nothing is lost.

DC

 

[Liquidsabre]

Curious you decided to leave out the rest of my quote, allow me to reemphasize what I've already stated:

A bloodline sorcerer will do the same. They will select a bloodline either because they want access to a spell they won't normally cast (because they don't plan to take it as a known spell) and/or the bloodline will be selected for additional casting of sorcerer spells (spells they plan on taking as known spells but want to be able to cast more of).

Since, last I'd seen there are no spells in the sorcerer domains that aren't on the Sorc/Wiz list, the access to spells they couldn't otherwise get part is irrelevant.

You are being uneccessarily adversarial I think DC, as it appears you either did not read my quote above, or worse, chose to ignore it. On top of this you obviously have not read and made an effort to go over the bloodline spells at all. There are several spells in the arcane bloodlines that are from the cleric and druid spell lists.

On more casting aspect, if I'm a cleric of an Earth deity (and thus have the Earth domain) I can cast magic stone once per day if I choose. If I want to be able to do it more, no problem, I simply prepare it more. If I don't, then I don't. I have that option every single day./

This is not in dispute, the only thing under discussion was simply the criteria with which doman/arcane bloodlines are selected. Nothing about the difference between a cleric and a sorcerer, it's not pertinent to the discussion of criteria for selection of domain/arcane bloodlines, but you obviously seem to think so. *shrugs* We'll have to leave it at that I suppose, we don't see eye to eye there.

But if I'm a sorcerer with the Deathtouched domain and I want to cast Ray of Enfeeblement more often I have to choose it as a spell which I am then stuck with.

Not entirely correct, a bloodline sorcerer may cast their 1st level bloodline spell more than 1/day. On top of this sorcerers possess the ability to switch out spells at 4th and beyond, ray of enfeeblement could be switched out at 6th level for example and a sorcerer is certainly not "stuck" with an undesirable spell.

These are not the same situation.

I never said it was the same situation, far from it. One: prepared domain spells, the other: spontaneous domain spells. Quite different. Actually the only thing under discussion was that the criteria for selection of domain/arcane bloodline are the same. Which I already proved are identical, irregardless of whether you choose to ignore parts of my posts or not.

A cleric's versatility makes domain spell slots feasible. The limitations of the sorcerer make it much less so.

It's certainly easy to say so but not so easy to be sure. This is why I have play-tested the bloodline sorcerer with two different campaigns and two different game groups (one group I DM'd the other DM'd by another). The arcane bloodlines proved to be entirely feasible. Perhaps if you made a bloodline sorcerer or two first and posted them for evidence to prove that the bloodlines aren't as feasible? That would be great and I would love to see something like that.

I'd looked through them. If all the spells are good ones, and the domains are balanced with each other, then just make them the first spell known of each level. Nothing is lost.

As has been mentioned numerous times in past posts in this thread...as play-testing proved, forcing sorcerers to select bloodline spells as known spells did not create a viable sorcerer variant (too weak), far from it. Neither did adding bloodline spells as known spells in addition to current # of known spells produce a viable sorcere variant (too powerful).

 

[DreamChaser]

I did read the whole post and I responded to the key part. I will respond to the part you mention as well.

A bloodline sorcerer will do the same. They will select a bloodline either because they want access to a spell they won't normally cast (because they don't plan to take it as a known spell) and/or the bloodline will be selected for additional casting of sorcerer spells (spells they plan on taking as known spells but want to be able to cast more of).

This, IMO, defeats the point of changing the sorcerer to fit a flavor. If the domain you choose = the flavor of your sorcerer then it should help to define the flavor not be chosen based upon a spell that would not be taken anyway. Since there is all of one 1st level fire spell in the core (burning hands) of course I would take that as a fire caster but I would resent having to take it twice.

Not entirely correct, a bloodline sorcerer may cast their 1st level bloodline spell more than 1/day. On top of this sorcerers possess the ability to switch out spells at 4th and beyond, ray of enfeeblement could be switched out at 6th level for example and a sorcerer is certainly not "stuck" with an undesirable spell.

so they could take burning hands (domain), mage armor, and burning hands. they can now cast BH up to 4 times per day (if they do nothing else and before bonus spells). I get that. At 4th level, they gain a second domain spell flame dagger and another spell say hmmm flame dagger since it would be silly to do otherwise. They can choose to switch burning hands for magic missile since they now have a second domain slot they could use.

So now I can either: choose to be able to cast my 1st level sig spell 7 times per day (not counting bonus spells if I keep the doubling and don't use my 2nd level bloodline slot) or 2 times (if i sacrifice the ability to use flame dagger). Hmmm...

I don't mean to sound completely adversarial but playtesting requires more than making a few characters and saying its good. The long term difference between one spell known per level could not possiblity be so great that it has revealed itself that strongly.

You welcomed me back to this thread and implied that you wanted my opinion which works well because I'm always happy to give it. But now I don't feel that you do; honestly, I feel like you want your beliefs about this variant reinforced.

*shrug* I may be wrong. But since you've don't nothing to answer my concerns other than say that I'm wrong or adversarial, I have no way of knowing.

DC