D&D 4E List of Potential New Martial Practices

[Garthanos]

I have been thinking of Martial Techniques which were basically the enchantments that get combined with basic Martial Techniques (those which allowed one to employ ones own body as a weapon). Now I am wondering if it would be cool if it worked also with a weapon. This thought was brought up partly by a weapon enchantment for giving a giant bane like ability to a ranger. What if this functionally allowed two enchantments on a weapon. // I actually like multi-function magic items wonder what abusing would happen

Presumedlly the Giant Slayer technique could be swapped out for a different one you have trained as well with minor action or the like.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Having been summoned, . . .

I used rituals in my game - I don't think they're perfect, and their are obvious issues with costs not scaling properly. But they haven't broken anything. I like @AbdulAlhazred's idea as an alternative way of doing them.

I've never used Martial Practices because of concerns about crowding out ordinary skill use. It sounds like they aren't needed in AbdulAlhazred's system either, because if magic is what lets you subsitute something else for the defaul, martial ability would involve using the default.

Well, here's an interesting observation about Rituals and MPs in 4e. They are ALMOST the only area of the game where one set of things is distinguished as explicitly magical, and another is distinguished as 'mundane' (though to be honest MPs are often pretty fantastical, so its perhaps a distinction without a difference). In my redesigning of 4e I abolished that distinction. One of the conceits of HoML is that the world IS magical, all of its processes, their governing rules, and their motivating energies ARE magic. This is in accord with much of the thinking of pre-modern people. As such there can be no such thing as a distinction between practice and ritual. They are one and the same. When the smith beats the iron into shape and alloys it with carbon to form a steel sword, that is a magical process from the start, there is no 'non-magical' 'nature' which exists without magic. So, in fact, I don't need MPs, but I also don't 'not have' them, they're just procedures which fall into certain categories. As with all other procedures, they can be invoked to allow a skill use in a narrative situation which fits their description.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One of the problems with "martial" being a default is a classic that D&D has always struggled with and i have characterized thusly.

"Wizards and Warriors both need explicit abilities/powers for what seem like opposite reasons; The Wizard has no inherent limits and thus need them to be defined and the Warrior need permission to be awesome" ->> (so they can be enabled to go beyond assumed limitations which enforce mundanity ).

I see martial practices with their surge cost as enabling a heroic skill extreme that goes beyond the normal that was defined in the skill descriptions (some do have explicit caps) or perhaps enabling one to do something explicitly paragon like, while in heroic tier (ok that too is vague) etc ... some of the existing mp may be too mundane and really should be within the normal skill scope -- that needs fixed I feel without guidelines heroic can end up mundane.

Abdul by treating rituals and mp as fully the same solved this problem and by only making the surge/ingredient cost boost something for challenges and auto successes and addressed the issue of spending on something which is sometimes just not valuable. (players don't like that).

It also tends to put the ball in the player's court. So now, instead of a practice that lets you learn a language being basically a boondoggle or at best a type of fig leaf (because the GM could always just say the orcs spoke in common or whatever, and if you learned orcish they could always speak in Darkwood Orcish which you can't understand of the GM wishes that) learning a language in my system is subtly worthwhile. It is now a plot coupon, the player gets to SAY that he just managed to do something because he could understand the orcs saying something. He's not dependent on the GM to be nice and decide that this time he'll let you understand. No, if the player REALLY wants it, he can say "and I spend a Vitality Point to auto-succeed!" By gosh he overheard the orcs complaining about how much that new elvish prisoner on level 5 smells like elderberry!

 

[pemerton]

I see martial practices with their surge cost as enabling a heroic skill extreme that goes beyond the normal that was defined in the skill descriptions (some do have explicit caps) or perhaps enabling one to do something explicitly paragon like, while in heroic tier (ok that too is vague) etc ... some of the existing mp may be too mundane and really should be within the normal skill scope -- that needs fixed I feel without guidelines heroic can end up mundane.

I've got no objection to guidelines. But I don't really see how Martial Practices as a mechanic add very much. Letting someone spend a healing surge to get some sort of benefit in a skill challenge is already something that is flagged in DMG 2. Why do I need to spend a feat to unlock some particular options?

Again, with rituals I can see what it is that is being paid for: eg [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s ability to fly (= travel quickly using Acrobatics rather than Athletics). Whereas why do I have to pay (a feat) to be able to spend a healing surge to use Athletics to run really fast (or whatever)?

Well, here's an interesting observation about Rituals and MPs in 4e. They are ALMOST the only area of the game where one set of things is distinguished as explicitly magical, and another is distinguished as 'mundane' (though to be honest MPs are often pretty fantastical, so its perhaps a distinction without a difference). In my redesigning of 4e I abolished that distinction. One of the conceits of HoML is that the world IS magical, all of its processes, their governing rules, and their motivating energies ARE magic.

I've got not objection to getting rid of that distinction. It doesn't play any particular role in my 4e game either.

But if you have a contrast between "default" things that can be done with a skill (eg Acrobatics can be used to do cartwheels) and then "extra" things that can be done with a skill + ritual (eg Acrobatics can be used to travel long distances quickly and ignoring terrain by flying), you still need that distinction between "default" and "extra". And I don't see any reason why the sorts of things covered by Martial Practices should be treated as "extra" rather than "default".

It also tends to put the ball in the player's court. So now, instead of a practice that lets you learn a language being basically a boondoggle or at best a type of fig leaf (because the GM could always just say the orcs spoke in common or whatever, and if you learned orcish they could always speak in Darkwood Orcish which you can't understand of the GM wishes that) learning a language in my system is subtly worthwhile. It is now a plot coupon, the player gets to SAY that he just managed to do something because he could understand the orcs saying something. He's not dependent on the GM to be nice and decide that this time he'll let you understand. No, if the player REALLY wants it, he can say "and I spend a Vitality Point to auto-succeed!" By gosh he overheard the orcs complaining about how much that new elvish prisoner on level 5 smells like elderberry!

This seems a bit orthogonal to the issue of whether the game needs MPs, though - unless I've got the wrong end of the stick - maybe MPs having a feat cost got abandoned at an earlier point in the thread!

 

[Garthanos]

I've got no objection to guidelines. But I don't really see how Martial Practices as a mechanic add very much. Letting someone spend a healing surge to get some sort of benefit in a skill challenge is already something that is flagged in DMG 2. Why do I need to spend a feat to unlock some particular options?

Identical options/benefits in many cases to those in Rituals in 4e standard game... sometimes with no money cost ie they have risk cost because you are down a surge. And as for the entry cost the same can be said for why do I need to spend a feat to be able to spend money to perform those Rituals? when they also have a money cost? or as you put it the DMG2 also mention spending money to gain a success as part of a skill challenge why do we need to spend a feat to learn rituals then?

D&D puts feat costs on a lot of things which you would expect might just take time and opportunity like learning languages OR Why do I need a feat cost to reflavor my dagger as a martial artists knife hand strike was a question I myself considered while working on the techniques. (the benefits are similar to what the spell casting classes have in being less item dependent it's subtle) , The new armor types as martial techniques enable different attributes to be the basis of "light" armor class and you gain access to them as well. --> the feat I renamed Martial Artistry is with my additions a multi-purpose enabler.

Additionally these practices do not just do healing surge application.

Transcendental Meditation can allow in some sense wisdom (Insight/Healing) to be used in the place of what might be Con (*Endurance) for sleeping lightly and for shorter times, this could be made explicit by having more skill checks explicitly in the practices with the results improvable via HS expense or with special cases like in the version I am making the cost is only spent when becoming awake and functional at need instantly ie when you are interrupted... this in the standard ritual presentation operates much like the alarm ritual. (which I am also changing to only cost the expensive components if the alarm goes off), in other words sometimes you do not use the Healing Surge. I am trying to have my cake and eat it too with this both presenting non-magical rituals in the standard 4e terms and in the process enhancing them to be worth the cost. (not just blindly applying the mp cost a healing surge concept)

The 4th dimensional packing skill humorously named after my wifes packing skills, allows one to improve the party carrying capacity using Dex (thieving) or Wis (Dungeoneering) based skills. So yeh you personally spend money on superior equipment and some time so the rest of the party doesn't have to make endurance checks or be operating encumbered (just like the tensers disk).

Parkour (a real world martial practice from France) Skill is generally acrobatics based. The primary technique is examine area... then navigate difficult/dangerous terrains without impairment (if you are in a rush you may spend a healing surge to do this without taking the time to examine things properly). A secondary effect would be able to use acrobatics instead of athletics for climbing. //others watching you navigate the terrain might gain benefits to overcome the problem as well making it worth doing in a group scenario.

As for guidelines and maybe even not having Martial Practices - I actually considered making generalized rules about how to spend healing surges on long term skill use; This would take the place of very many Martial Practices for example one for steady performance.(take 10 when you normally couldn't). Rushed performance is another example (Significantly reduce the time in long term performance / removing rest stops as well as accelerating )

 

[Garthanos]

One thing I have been considering was to grant many if not all classes a set of Martial Practices or Rituals which are flavored specifically for their class

This would be comparable to the hunters knacks (some of these are identical to an mp) or the wizards cantrips -- at least the recent cantrips being (over broad and needing narrowed) skill swapping kind of points a connection to rituals and mp to me.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've got no objection to guidelines. But I don't really see how Martial Practices as a mechanic add very much. Letting someone spend a healing surge to get some sort of benefit in a skill challenge is already something that is flagged in DMG 2. Why do I need to spend a feat to unlock some particular options?

Again, with rituals I can see what it is that is being paid for: eg @AbdulAlhazred's ability to fly (= travel quickly using Acrobatics rather than Athletics). Whereas why do I have to pay (a feat) to be able to spend a healing surge to use Athletics to run really fast (or whatever)?

Well, in terms of the feat cost... I tend to talk about how things work in my own design, in which 'feat cost' isn't really a thing anymore. Although one could complain something like "hey, I liked being 4th level and when I got the ability to use 'practices' I was suddenly 5th level, what gives!!!!???" It just is such a weird sort of conversation, it never seems to happen. I recognize however that in some sense you could say "well, some boons aren't as good as others" perhaps, but then again I think the way to fix that is to make better subsystems!

The upshot being, in HoML at least, you generally can just go ahead and use whatever narrative logic you wish, but having a 'ritual' or whatever is explicit permission, otherwise you might still justify most anything I suppose, but it won't be quite so easy (and I note that boons, in the sense that they are like feats/themes/pps/etc also provide plenty of such hooks without 'practices'). Anyway, most characters can acquire some sort of practices without needing some 'feat-like' justification, they're minor boons. We've adopted a much less structured approach to 'enabler' types of mechanics (you must have X before you can get Y).

But if you have a contrast between "default" things that can be done with a skill (eg Acrobatics can be used to do cartwheels) and then "extra" things that can be done with a skill + ritual (eg Acrobatics can be used to travel long distances quickly and ignoring terrain by flying), you still need that distinction between "default" and "extra". And I don't see any reason why the sorts of things covered by Martial Practices should be treated as "extra" rather than "default".

Yes, and that's what I've worked at. I mean, we started out at the point of 'martial characters got shafted' in the ritual concept, they are all explicitly magical spells. 4e rituals CAN be accessed by anyone at a feat cost and so its not a big deal, you can have your magical fighter if you want. There was, however, always this area of things that skills 'covered' but powers didn't (and couldn't, given the vast range of possible things you could try). I think practices were spawned originally by a desire to allow players to assert some particular 'not formally magical' abilities with their skills. Of course it inevitably runs into the 'extra vs default' pitfall that all such things inevitably will (and most skill systems in RPGs fall completely into).

I've simply attempted to carve out a sort of 'grey area' where something like 'procedures' (rituals, MPs, Alchemy, etc) can exist. They're not powers, and you don't strictly NEED them, but you can gain them (and not as a restricted 'slotted' resource) and use them as a sort of stronger version of 'color' for your character. "Hey, we need to travel to Zangdorf Isle, instead of using a Nature check to see if we navigate the boat I'll use my fly ritual and replace that with an Arcana check".

You are correct that RC-level SCs in 4e specifically allow for the possibility of something spending a surge to guarantee a success (or turn a failure into a success IIRC). This does align with HoML's 'procedure' utilization rule where you can lock in a success with a VP expenditure when you can justify it with a procedure.

This seems a bit orthogonal to the issue of whether the game needs MPs, though - unless I've got the wrong end of the stick - maybe MPs having a feat cost got abandoned at an earlier point in the thread!

Yeah, it was more of an aside.

Anyway, you've got me thinking, and I think that 'procedure' 'ritual' and even 'practice' are maybe the wrong words to use. These things might best be called 'techniques'. They aren't necessarily invoked using some involved process, some of them could well apply in any situation practically like a feat benefit (though I think I'd prefer the 'do something ahead of time to enable this' model generally).

My thoughts on this whole thing definitely evolve over time. I've tried a lot of different ideas out, on paper if nothing else, but I think this is getting me to someplace. Not quite where Garthanos is at, but somewhere...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One thing I have been considering was to grant many if not all classes a set of Martial Practices or Rituals which are flavored specifically for their class

This would be comparable to the hunters knacks (some of these are identical to an mp) or the wizards cantrips -- at least the recent cantrips being (over broad and needing narrowed) skill swapping kind of points a connection to rituals and mp to me.

I like the idea of cantrips as techniques.

 

[Garthanos]

My thoughts on this whole thing definitely evolve over time. I've tried a lot of different ideas out, on paper if nothing else, but I think this is getting me to someplace. Not quite where Garthanos is at, but somewhere...

Not that far off though I am arguably holding on to 4e prime a bit tighter at the moment.

For instance I am thinking a DM deciding that one doesnt need a feat to learn rituals / martial practices would just be a low impact house rule in 4e. Any class which had the feat I would be inclined to provide a few more free ones ... and carry on.

 

[Garthanos]

I like the idea of cantrips as techniques.

it is not a huge jump I think when I fixed the new cantrips so they were more situational I thought wow those are now about like rituals in function even if faster to perform.