4E List of Potential New Martial Practices

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Prices of Power in Practice

I am not just introducing new practices I am trying to fix their value it has been pointed out DMs really can just enable the effects of martial practices even allowing the healing surge cost. The DMG2 has a guideline that defines the relative value and the use space for both practices and rituals which goes beyond by establishing a suggested improvisation effectiveness.

Most easily expressed a skill check can be used to allow a practice to not have that healing surge cost. This feature allows the cost of practices to act more like rituals for instance while low level rituals are often still useful at higher levels their cost effectively fades out.

We also have contexts for use of Karma Points for practices (such as those being rehearsed into something akin to a scroll).

The following rather addresses those costs

Prices of Power in Practice

One of the things MPIII intends is to assure that the price of practices are “worth it”.

What is the grand level effect of knowing/employing the right practice - the DMG2 gives us an answer - success in a skill challenge, this is a take out from those guidelines associated with improvised use of money and healing surges, they present and will be leveraged fairly heavily. So if you do not agree with this the conclusion here may not jive for you.

The DMG2 accredited pocket cash of 1/10 of a magic item cost equates to a healing surge expenditure and the monetary price of a success in a skill challenge. This in combination brings the conclusion that Martial Practices are usually too expensive when compared to rituals. (which looking at the numbers range from ¼ to rarely ⅔ one would expect and Martial Practices are full cost. The proposed method for bringing that cost in line for MP using Healing Surges is basically a Skill Check. Practices and rituals effectively about purchasing improved efficiency for something which one might otherwise improvise a payment to do.

In other words practices are improved efficiency at something the heroic might indeed be able to do anyway. And they can continue to act as inspirations for those who might prefer more free form improvisational acts.

So in effect any practice whose cost was either a full healing surge or 1/10 item cost can arguably be attempted without purchasing any practice and ought to be effectively free in the sense that it is reimbursed we have several of that scale -- These are generally ones which can be seen as providing story for something you can already do by baseline 4e assumptions (such as controlling the nature of your character advancement).

Column 1 is level - and column 2 below represents the baseline cost that someone improvising - subsequent columns are varying efficiencies above that base line - generally) . and the final column is a DC which can be used to modify a Healing Surge cost with a Skill Roll .(level isnt always the level at which you gain the practice many rituals have costs to use significantly lower)

Karma Costs [full], ¼, ⅓, ½ and DCs
  1. [36] → 9 or 12 or 18 (DC 15)
  2. [52] → 13 or 17 or 26
  3. [68] → 15 or 23 or 34 (DC 16)
  4. [84] → 21 or 28 or 42
  5. [100] → 25 or 33 or 50 (DC 17)
  6. [180] → 45 or 60 or 90
  7. [260] → 65 or 87 or 130 (DC 18)
  8. [340] → 85 or 113 or 170
  9. [420] → 105 or 140 or 210 (DC 19)
  10. [500] → 125 or 153 or 250
  11. [900] → 225 or 300 or 450 (DC 20)
  12. [1300] → 325 or 433 or 650
  13. [1700] → 425 or 533 or 850 (DC 21)
  14. [2100] → 525 or 700 or 1050
  15. [2500] → 625 or 833 or 1250 (DC 22)
  16. [4500] → 1125 or 1500 or 2250
  17. [6500] → 1525 or 2166 or 3250 (DC 23)
  18. [8500] → 2125
  19. [10500] → 2625 (DC 24)
  20. [12500] → 3125
  21. [22500] → 5625 (DC 25)
  22. [32500] → 8125
  23. [42500] → 10625 (DC 26)
  24. [52500] → 13125
  25. [62500] → 15625 (DC 27)
  26. [112500] → 28125
  27. [162500] → 40625 (DC 28)
  28. [212500] → 53125
  29. [312500] → 78125 (DC 29)
  30. [562500] → 140625


I should probably have 3 DCs per level to represent different efficiencies just as I have 3 karma costs.
 
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See, all this math is why I just made a new system that can break 4e's assumption ;) Now I have one consistent system, practices, which subsumes all the ways you can do 'operational' level things, or that you can create 'consumable' options which you can then use in action sequences (any fast-paced combat-like situation).

Anyway, your numbers don't seem crazy to me.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Anyway, your numbers don't seem crazy to me.
I could justify different DC target its a bit of an assumption game. I mean the target is that for the 1/4 case it means 25 percent of the time you have to pay the healing surge. For a minimally trained user that would be a target of 10 but any number of things ranging from a solid tertiary to bonuses of backgrounds and you want the target 13 or tadah 15.

And I guess that is where I got the DC from.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Croms Child

Feat : Croms Disciple
Allows one to use Riddle of Steel on items up to 4 levels higher
(insert other benefit for being an independent kind of dude here
maybe even a feat bonus to Will)

New rule associates with Riddle of Steel/Rite of Independence

Item generates karma based on its relative level

if the item is four or more less than the one sacreficing/destroying it - the Karma gain is 100 percent value
if 3 then 50 percent value
if 2 then 33 percent value
if 1 less 25 percent value
if at or better then 20 percent.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Most easily expressed a skill check can be used to allow a practice to not have that healing surge cost. This feature allows the cost of practices to act more like rituals for instance while low level rituals are often still useful at higher levels their cost effectively fades out. .
Moved the cost table and simpler explanation into the original post.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
At first I was thinking the value of being a Sensai is not something one might use in a skill challenge so the presumed costing system didnt apply at all. And sensai gets the same value out as a weapon forging practice.

But then I thought wait a minute! being able to teach a village to defend itself is a classic trope!!

Any hero might be able to do it and spend X dollars a Healing surge to flash train them maybe in part by becoming the villages practice dummy for instance. Someone who is a practiced sensai should be able to do it "cheaper." and more efficiently.

This use of Sensai would operate like other practices. Making this explicitly to train a dozen village men and get them to have hands like clubs so they can be a big surprise at the right moment and gain a success in a level 1 challenge. (there might be more villagers but maybe it will take for about 12 that will be enough why because see cost table above and the 1gp cost of a club).

OR it could be done by improvisationally spending a healing surge by any hero and possibly freely by a Sensai if they make a 15DC insight check.

Perhaps another group of players didnt have a sensei and instead of becoming practice dummies decided to surreptitiously buy perhaps more impressive weapons for the villagers like 36GP of spears which are more expensive because the villagers would lack the confidence with only clubs. (but being trained to use your hands is impressive and confidence building even if its equivalent weaponry).

And that is the point of the cost table and the skill checks practices shouldnt stop heros from doing things it should inspire the DM/Players and in game make it more efficient if the pcs know them.
 
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I agree, being able to teach something is great in many SCs.

I would, in HoML, make this a practice, maybe one that can be attached to a fairly 'down the chain' boon (IE you have to work your way from Swordsman -> Sword Expert -> Sword Master) and THEN you can use the 'Sensai' practice to elevate someone else to Swordsman (or just to pass a check in an SC like 'prepare the village defenses' or something).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I agree, being able to teach something is great in many SCs.

I would, in HoML, make this a practice, maybe one that can be attached to a fairly 'down the chain' boon (IE you have to work your way from Swordsman -> Sword Expert -> Sword Master) and THEN you can use the 'Sensai' practice to elevate someone else to Swordsman (or just to pass a check in an SC like 'prepare the village defenses' or something).
A Kensei is a specialized Swords teacher. I misspelled Sensei numerous times lol.

The character could have taken Forge Mastery (and be able to Forge the village weapons they werent expected to have) neither ability I think demands the kind of Ranking process you mention. Although there are ranks I have in techniques they go from any mundane weapon to +6 magic items basically.

I was specifically pushing that ANY hero could either spend the cash or effort and teach the village something of this sort which would enhance the situation but the sensei does it cheaper just like a ritualist does some things cheaper.

In the case above its basically providing the village with unexpected weaponry and perhaps another party member could also say I am a Warlord and i am going to use my mastery of battle and History skill to set a plan and to get the village acting as a team I will use Diplomacy and knowing when and where to respond to the enemy. Get them wetting down buildings so the enemy cannot burn them so easily might be in their some where.

And perhaps combine that with the party engineer (wink wink) setting man traps with the villagers helping the entire process.

We can use the above so that we can funnel the baddest of the bad guys to the players who can take them out and so the village will be relatively unaffected.
 
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A Kensei is a specialized Swords teacher. I misspelled Sensei numerous times lol.
I don't think your use was incorrect. 'Sensei' is 'teacher' in Japanese. Kensei - I don't know the etymology, but the two words sound very similar, so I'm guessing it not only connotes a master at swordsmanship, but also one who teaches said mastery. So 'swordsmanship teacher' could pretty much use either term, though I'm sure one is more correct than the other.

Anyway, my use of the more general term was really intended to generalize the concept, though I then went ahead and used sword fighting as an example. The same concept would hold for any other discipline.

The character could have taken Forge Mastery (and be able to Forge the village weapons they werent expected to have) neither ability I think demands the kind of Ranking process you mention. Although there are ranks I have in techniques they go from any mundane weapon to +6 magic items basically.

I was specifically pushing that ANY hero could either spend the cash or effort and teach the village something of this sort which would enhance the situation but the sensei does it cheaper just like a ritualist does some things cheaper.
Yeah, HoML has other considerations with boons, which pushed me in the direction of a sort of 'path', which is mainly to say that each boon gets you a couple of power choices. So you need a number of boons in the same discipline to provide a full menu of choices across all 20 levels. However I didn't really intend it to be like a 'path' in that every PC needs to get each boon in order, you could potentially have only the most advanced one, if that makes sense narratively in the game.

I agree, any PC (or person) can teach, but having the practice will make you MUCH more effective. In HoML terms you can spend a 'boost' (usually, but not always, a Vitality Point) to guarantee a success in your SC for that check. This lets the players 'invest' in what they REALLY want. Of course if they burn a lot of VPs to breeze through the 'train the villagers' SC, then there will be that many less available when the 'defend the village' SC/combat(s) comes up.

In the case above its basically providing the village with unexpected weaponry and perhaps another party member could also say I am a Warlord and i am going to use my mastery of battle and History skill to set a plan and to get the village acting as a team I will use Diplomacy and knowing when and where to respond to the enemy. Get them wetting down buildings so the enemy cannot burn them so easily might be in their some where.

And perhaps combine that with the party engineer (wink wink) setting man traps with the villagers helping the entire process.

We can use the above so that we can funnel the baddest of the bad guys to the players who can take them out and so the village will be relatively unaffected.
Sure, and likewise you could have a 'Master Strategist' practice that provided roughly the same results, but relied on different stats and perhaps demanded a different boost price.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Sure, and likewise you could have a 'Master Strategist' practice that provided roughly the same results, but relied on different stats and perhaps demanded a different boost price.
Well we have been discussing how to get Strategic ability into the game... and Martial Practices kind of fit the type

Oath of Fealty practice just gets you the followers in normal circumstances.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Idea to give Endurance some loving in the arena of performing skills for a long time ;)

Persistant Practictioner

Pick several practices number to be determined and if you spend X minutes longer or perhaps 2x
You can use endurance as the Normal skill for reducing the Healing Surge Cost on that use.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think it is worth noting that the primary benefit of strategy was not really in making the battle go better for the PCs against the bigger badders but in making the scenario outcome better which is the real win and the real goal.... if the PCs just fought the bad guys and won ... they are fiddling while Rome burns if the town is pillaged around them. And there didnt have to be any big mechanic changes to make this all happen, even if it points to improvements of some non-combat elements like practices.

I think skill challenges are great they needed presented better and refined before system release and abandoning them is just reason 872 why Mearles and the capitulation which is 5e sucks.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Idea to give Endurance some loving in the arena of performing skills for a long time ;)

Persistant Practictioner

Pick several practices number to be determined and if you spend X minutes longer or perhaps 2x
You can use endurance as the Normal skill for reducing the Healing Surge Cost on that use.
This is kind of like the Metapractice - Acupuncture, which allows thievery to be applied to a set of practices. If it applied to a specific category for which it made sense that would make it exactly like it.

I have at least a couple of reasons for wanting something like this

  • Arcana allows the mage a huge set of rituals and EVERY mage has it.
  • Endurance getting more say in long term use of skilled activity HELL yes.

I named it like a feat I know... but.
 
That SCHandbook has a bit of an interesting take on SCs. Dang it [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION], do you want me rewriting half of my game AGAIN!!!!???? :]
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That SCHandbook has a bit of an interesting take on SCs. Dang it @Garthanos, do you want me rewriting half of my game AGAIN!!!!???? :]
Heh hehehehh .... yes, now that you mention it, yes I do ;)

Skill challenges need to be sweet and given closer to their full potential ie moving forward not abandoned or short sheeted by anything wanting to be a descendant of our favorite game.

There is a lot to absorb in that handbook isnt there.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Especially anything with awesome name and potential of Heros of Myth and Legend. [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]
 
Heh hehehehh .... yes, now that you mention it, yes I do ;)

Skill challenges need to be sweet and given closer to their full potential ie moving forward not abandoned or short sheeted by anything wanting to be a descendant of our favorite game.

There is a lot to absorb in that handbook isnt there.
Agreed. Up until NOW I hadn't seen something that grabbed me and said "This is better than the RC edit of 4e SCs", but I think I have to definitely rethink that now. Luckily I could change over to a system like the one in the PDF without it really mucking up the game too much. SCs are a vital part of HoML, but the exact internals aren't SUPER critical as long as they're based on discrete task resolution, which this system is. My "practices act as a license to pay for auto-success" actually works REALLY WELL with this writeup, I think.
 

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