4E List of Potential New Martial Practices

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Agreed. Up until NOW I hadn't seen something that grabbed me and said "This is better than the RC edit of 4e SCs", but I think I have to definitely rethink that now. Luckily I could change over to a system like the one in the PDF without it really mucking up the game too much. SCs are a vital part of HoML, but the exact internals aren't SUPER critical as long as they're based on discrete task resolution, which this system is. My "practices act as a license to pay for auto-success" actually works REALLY WELL with this writeup, I think.
Yes and I am using that presumption in my costing system for practices too.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That handbook has me wondering if I should write up my Martial Practices in their final form in a more system neutral fashion. Include pricing that is more cross edition, like hit point expenditure and the like. [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]

I already seem to be thinking in terms of using Engineering
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That handbook has me wondering if I should write up my Martial Practices in their final form in a more system neutral fashion. Include pricing that is more cross edition, like hit point expenditure and the like. @AbdulAlhazred

I already seem to be thinking in terms of using Engineering
a level 1 practice might only be learnable at level 5 in a 20 level systems
A level 10 practice would be learnable at 10
A level 20 practice would be learnable at 15
A level 30 practice would be learnable at 20

The above rather presumes the lower levels correspond with AD&D or 5e
 
a level 1 practice might only be learnable at level 5 in a 20 level systems
A level 10 practice would be learnable at 10
A level 20 practice would be learnable at 15
A level 30 practice would be learnable at 20

The above rather presumes the lower levels correspond with AD&D or 5e
I have really found the 20 level progression to be a lot more natural than the 30 level one of 4e. I think the 4e designers started out with the basic 20 level progression concept, and then they imagined epic tier as a sort of 'other game' or additional material, much like AD&D or 3.x basically assume you would play for 20 levels and then maybe anything beyond that is a sort of optional 'god mode' (which I guess 3.x actually calls 'epic', though I'm not really a 3.x guru).

Over time the design kind of shifted. They invented epic destinies, etc. Then, I suspect, at some point they kind of 'rescaled' the game and tried to tame the sort of 'craziness' that happened in high level play in earlier editions. Maybe this wasn't really a separate phase of design but as it happened it kind brought epic tier 'down to earth' in a sense, remaking it into sort of just 'high level play' again, so that by the time 4e was released its level 30 is basically pretty similar to level 20 in earlier systems.

I think the process wasn't really a positive one. The original idea of putting a 'crazy god mode' into the intended scope of the rules wasn't a BAD idea, but when it effectively just ended up as 30 levels of what was once 20 it burdened the game with too many levels. HoML is great because there are SO MANY FEWER needs for extra 'stuff' to invent to 'fill levels'. Each thing is just more naturally significant and interesting in and of itself. Pacing of level advancement can always be accomplished by whatever means, simply giving out major boons less often basically.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I have really found the 20 level progression to be a lot more natural than the 30 level one of 4e.
I will say I do not know how yours progresses I made that translation based on AD&D / 5e where those lower levels were can you run the gauntlet and not have your farmer apprentice not die ... levels.
 
I will say I do not know how yours progresses I made that translation based on AD&D / 5e where those lower levels were can you run the gauntlet and not have your farmer apprentice not die ... levels.
Well, this is the funny thing about 4e, you don't have the 'farmer apprentice' levels, but in a sense you don't have the super crazy gonzo 'god levels' EITHER. So you have 30 levels which are actually pretty consistently a gradual progression from fairly bad-ass nascent local hero up through 'best in this city' to 'best in the kingdom' (paragon) to 'best in the world today' (level 21 or so) to 'best who ever lived' (level 30), but a lot of the same concepts govern all these levels. Now, admittedly, some people play epic MUCH more 'gonzo' than others. It can have that element to it, but its still not quite like classic D&D or 3.x where level 14+ wizards and priests are laying down wish-level magic.

That made me feel like 30 levels was overkill, and in designing a 20 level progression variation of 4e I found that this was indeed the case.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Martialling Troops aka Oath of Fealty

Marshalling Troops aka Oath of Fealty
In pure abstracted form this allow you to efficiently expend resources to bring troops to bear against a problem situation (aka skill challenge) This requires you to be in a situation which allows you to acquire troops so it like most practices and rituals quite situational.

Generally the effect is expenditure of Karma / Gold after making a skill check which modifies the cost and represents the quality of your application of the forces to the task. (see below about visualizing). This gains you forces needed to address the challenge and gain an auto success in the challenge.

How much does it cost? That part is actually fairly easy. Governing roll is normally History.

Perhaps a chart like this?
A good roll and its 1/40th the cost of a magic item at the level of the challenge you are facing.
a fair roll and its 1/30
a meh roll and its 1/20
a critical failure roll and its a full 1/10th the price of a magic item at that level

How do we visualize this? The is not actually just about paying daily wages for troops that is really a tuppence the Oaths of Fealty you make bind you to pay the cost associated with the death of your Thanes and to expend resources towards healing their injuries and so on. Part of the value of troops marshalled is they are not necessarily located in story context exactly where you are they become a flanking approach to the problem. IE they may be a valuable distraction or larger scale intimidation which averts a portion of the issue or removes an obstacle interfering with a heroes action in the challenge doubling there results. Flavorwise knowing this practice includes maintaining a reputation a family name a connection to your organization etc.

What are we missing? ... numbers and nature of the troops. AT the core even though I want numbers really is about flavor and aiding visualization.

Numbers with names to abstract them
fireteam(4 or 5)
squad (10)
platoon (40 or 50)
company or centurion 100)
legion.(4000 or 5000)

Mayhaps the player might make up the style or nature of the troops (still could be fun to have some easy ideas handy )

Participating.
An exertion (and potentially healing surge cost dependent on skill check as usual) can also be used to represent you taking active part in the portion of the battle either via genius or bravura in which your troops feature assuring most of the soldiery can survive while reaping glory and situational hazard pay (looting the enemy forces), ie without karma point or gold piece cost to you ie you take the brunt of any failures upon yourself in one fashion or another perhaps your spent a healing surge saving the life of of your soldiers and inspired all the rest.

When you arent at home aka Schrodinger's rescue troops ie a way to use your troops very much on the fly is represented by an application of Trained Preparedness (perhaps kept interesting by increasing the difficulty of the skill check with failures sometimes meaning the troops didnt arrive in time and similar issues)

Anyway I want to start enumerating details on some of these practices.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
King Arthur of legend had approximately 100 named roundtable knights even 4 of these were not a match for an unarmed and unarmored Lancelot. ie in game terms they were minion class characters and maybe even significantly lower level than his hero Class Knights (Arguably other PCs) .
 
King Arthur of legend had approximately 100 named roundtable knights even 4 of these were not a match for an unarmed and unarmored Lancelot. ie in game terms they were minion class characters and maybe even significantly lower level than his hero Class Knights (Arguably other PCs) .
Right. I mean, even by old school D&D a 'knight' is basically a 4th level fighter. Not super common but only incrementally stronger than a hobgoblin or bugbear. Certainly a 9th level fighter in 1e would handle several at once.

So, likewise, in 4e, as NPCs you're looking at a bunch of maybe mid-heroic minions and standards, with some paragon figures to represent the really heavy hitters. King Arthur and Lancelot are probably level 18 elites or something like that maybe.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I have ulterior motives in thinking about this ... ie maybe this can give me those flavor numbers for my Marshalling Troop / Oath of Fealty (Warlord Practice)

Right. I mean, even by old school D&D a 'knight' is basically a 4th level fighter. Not super common but only incrementally stronger than a hobgoblin or bugbear. Certainly a 9th level fighter in 1e would handle several at once.

So, likewise, in 4e, as NPCs you're looking at a bunch of maybe mid-heroic minions and standards, with some paragon figures to represent the really heavy hitters. King Arthur and Lancelot are probably level 18 elites or something like that maybe.
Old school Knight is a level 1 4e fighter of course but it wasnt a landed one.

I estimate the roundtable knights a bit higher (aside from wierdos like other PCs) in 1e terms most Roundtable knights I believe had their own estates and castles and followers and it took a lot bullying and impressing to get them under the Dragons Banner, I think we can use the Name Level == Paragon.

I think you estimated Arthur Close but I am going a couple levels higher (say early epic) . Epic Destinies on board by the time he was dealing with that many. (100+ roundtable knights)

A fireteam I was thinking were like 4 or 5 sturdy 2 hit minions or the squad as 10 normal minions. And that many can generate 1 success for a challenge of their level. (Heros and heroic effort is pretty awesome) ---> if that works we have our numbers.

Arthur deciding to use his Oaths of Fealty / Marshalling Troops practice in an at level challenge like hunting for the grail - perhaps those 100 knights are 25 fireteam worth of characters which are 10 levels lower than Arthur (and the skill challenge).

Technically one could get fewer of those with their own followers backing them handwave handwave for the war between Mordred and Arthur. Arthur got only part of his round table but this wasnt a holy quest and they pulled in their followers and so over all potency could still be analogous to the Grail Quest forces

I am thinking flavor math here... you complained about the somewhat more rigorous math ;)

All I am shooting for is the "Hey that kind of works feeling"
 
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I have ulterior motives in thinking about this ... ie maybe this can give me those flavor numbers for my Marshalling Troop / Oath of Fealty (Warlord Practice)



Old school Knight is a level 1 4e fighter of course but it wasnt a landed one.

I estimate the roundtable knights a bit higher (aside from wierdos like other PCs) in 1e terms most Roundtable knights I believe had their own estates and castles and followers and it took a lot bullying and impressing to get them under the Dragons Banner, I think we can use the Name Level == Paragon.

I think you estimated Arthur Close but I am going a couple levels higher (say early epic) . Epic Destinies on board by the time he was dealing with that many. (100+ roundtable knights)

A fireteam I was thinking were like 4 or 5 sturdy 2 hit minions or the squad as 10 normal minions. And that many can generate 1 success for a challenge of their level. (Heros and heroic effort is pretty awesome) ---> if that works we have our numbers.

Arthur deciding to use his Oaths of Fealty / Marshalling Troops practice in an at level challenge like hunting for the grail - perhaps those 100 knights are 25 fireteam worth of characters which are 10 levels lower than Arthur (and the skill challenge).

Technically one could get fewer of those with their own followers backing them handwave handwave for the war between Mordred and Arthur. Arthur got only part of his round table but this wasnt a holy quest and they pulled in their followers and so over all potency could still be analogous to the Grail Quest forces

I am thinking flavor math here... you complained about the somewhat more rigorous math ;)

All I am shooting for is the "Hey that kind of works feeling"
Yeah, and I think that the way 4e works it makes sense. You just need 'success equivalents' and 'monster equivalents' to mesh in with the encounter/challenge system. This is really one of the best parts about 4e. It is actually pretty easy to make up even some pretty crazy stuff.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Added in Patrol and Squadron military units also note how the levelling works with the cost system at a 5x rate per 5 levels.

fireteam(4 or 5) at level but 2 hit minions
squad (10) at level normal minions
patrol of 20 to 25 2 hit minions 5 levels lower
platoon (40 or 50) 5 levels lower normal minions
company or centurion 100 10 levels lower 2 hit minions
squadron of (200 or 250) 10 levels lower 1 hit minions
legion.(4000 or 5000) 15 levels lower
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, and I think that the way 4e works it makes sense.
I think in this instance many things come together to make this work fairly elegantly - skill challenges, minions, practices and this time I am even liking how the economics work out.

To me doing 1e things in a 4e way is kind of badass and demonstrates how robust and flexible 4e is.
 
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Could you elaborate a little... (pretty sure I get monster equivalents though)
Well, when dealing with SCs, then you want to figure out what the resource expended is that equates to a success. I mean, its not really that hard, we normally consider a daily to be worth a success (or in HoML a Vitality Point expenditure). In terms of these minion groups I guess you could say "well, my legion perished holding back the demon lord for 1 hour!" which gives you a success (given some particular fictional position).
 
I think in this instance many things come together to make this work fairly elegantly - skill challenges, minions, practices and this time I am even liking how the economics work out.

To me doing 1e things in a 4e way is kind of badass and demonstrates how robust and flexible 4e is.
Definitely, this goes to things like "I made my way to the location of a teacher." (completed an encounter and got taught a grand master training by the teacher, which is a treasure parcel). That sort of thing. "My business was successful this month and I made 1000gp" (successful SC gives a treasure parcel of 1000gp). You can pretty much recast everything in those terms and it 'just works'.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In terms of these minion groups I guess you could say "well, my legion perished holding back the demon lord for 1 hour!" which gives you a success (given some particular fictional position).
Sure that result could also be after holding the demonlord off for an hour the legion was routed in disarray and needing money to heal with and the death prices for some to assure you maintain karma and can call on them or even others like them again... A good roll means they gained lots of glory and trust your leadership even more and it costs less karma and fewer died.

You could even use when you are on the edge of no resources and I rolled badly and I don't have any karma or gold to pay for it I cannot use again till I do which symbolically means a loss of reputation people not trusting you a debt of "death prices" for some and so on. Though you can make amends or overcome the reputation fail.

Players and DMs could/should cooperate in describing the results.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
At low level you spent ten gold to have 10 minions to watch the borders of the township, in story maybe 1 total died and the majority of the money went to the family of that individual and the others who only got silvers also got part of the glory of defending the village and will be telling their sons and daughters. The family knows you care and will produce more sons also interested in following you and your lineage etc. instead of wanting your head.

This is compared to improvising the same trick and hiring mercenaries for 36 gold.
 
Right, maybe as an extreme you can 'temporarily sacrifice' your capability, like your troupe is decimated and must regroup, but you get an automatic success as they put up a stubborn rear-guard action to allow the refugees to escape. Later you can accept some sort of cost to undo that, a treasure parcel, a personal debt, etc.

You could even, in the right situation, make it an 'ultimate sacrifice', the 300 are wiped out to a man, but the great evil army is turned back at the pass! They're gone, you won't get them back, but of course you've created the basis for a new legend.
 

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