Logic behind sales of "Expedition to Castle Greyhawk"?

[Razz]

Scale back on the assitude, please.

The medieval stuff is what's been depicted in FR art almost exclusively, except for a handful of selected novels and sourcebooks. The non-Faerun sections of the Forgotten Realms are less popular than the core region and have received only a little attention this time around.

At the present time, FR is a fantasy medieval setting as far as most consumers are concerned, much like Greyhawk mostly is. Yes, both settings have other stuff around the edges, but it's not the dominant flavor of the setting and unless one or both settings has a 90 degree turn on how it's developed for the rest of this edition -- "All Maztica, all the time!" -- they would be competing in the same space.

I wasn't giving him any sort of attitude. It was an honest and sincere question. Maybe he's a really busy guy and hasn't read much about FR, I don't know how he schedules his time, honestly.

But being in the position he is in, I assume he knows enough about FR to realize it's not exactly, nor entirely, a medieval-setting game.

And the thing is people who learn about FR by reading it will come to realize it's very different from GH. If they're told by someone else, that person should be able to show and tell them the big differences. I do all the time with new players when explaining what a campaign setting is and the different types of settings out there. When talking about GH and FR, there's more than just a subtle difference.

What I have problems with is explaining the differences between FR and Eberron. Those two confuse new people only because they're both described as "highly magical" and I get a lot of quirked eyebrows when I tell them Eberron is more "pulp-noir" (then I have to explain what that term means) and then they say something like "Oh, why can't you have that same style in FR?"

So, yeah, if anything Eberron and FR are rather hard to differentiate in terms than GH and FR. With Eberron, I just open a book and show them pictures and then show them FR pictures to compare, then they understand the setting differences

 

[GVDammerung]

The problem I have with that is if you guys come out with more material for Greyhawk based on these "tests", that's going to already eat into the general supplements, Forgotten Realms material, and Eberron material.

I don't think homebrews will be pleased to see that less books are being released because Greyhawk material is now taking up space. The same goes for Realms fans (like me) who've been dying to get some good Realms products (since 2007 FR products are, well, a silly trilogy of adventures and a coffee-table book?), and the Eberron fans will gripe about less Eberron products.

Granted, I am not saying Greyhawk fans should never get material. I just don't think they should be getting hardcore amounts of material like the Realms and Eberron should have. If that is the case, there's plenty of Planescape fans, Ravenloft fans, and Dark Sun fans that'll just gripe about Greyhawk gettings its chance but not them.

As one can tell, I am no fan of Greyhawk. I understand it's necessity for those who want to run very simple, very light, and very low-magic and low-level type games in such a setting. But I highly doubt there's enough interest in it anymore to cull the fat off us FR and Eberron fans.

Then again, maybe these "tests" will prove otherwise, I guess. But I figure I'd throw my 2 copper out there anyway.

It comes down to this one question to you: if GH has a large interest, how much will it dissolve the generic (cap books like Complete series, Races of series, etc.), FR and Eberron material?

I respect your honesty, even as your opinion strikes me sort of Paris Hilton. The Realms have gotten so much produt for so long that I cannot feel your pain that it might now get one or two less products. Begging your pardon but _complaining_ about _only_ three big adventures in a year is laughable when GH fans have gone years with nothing. Eberron, in its short life to this point, has also enjoyed an embarrassment of riches in its support. Giving GH a product or two isn't going to hurt either FR or Eberron in any significant way. No one that I have read is suggesting GH get FR like supplements upon supplements upon supplements.

And "giving" GH anything is the wrong term. GH will either prove profitable and will get product slots because it is profitable for Wotc or GH will continue to go begging. Wotc is a business not a charity. And as a business, Wotc is well advised to look at its options from time to time to include GH.

One option that has been mentioned by Scott Rouse and followed up by Eric Mona is the possibility of a license. A licensed GH would take nothing away from FR or Eberron as published by Wotc. To this extent, the cry that FR and Eberron will suffer is "wolf!"

As for yor "understanding" that GH is "necessity for those who want to run very simple, very light, and very low-magic and low-level type games in such a setting," that's just a troll.

 

[GVDammerung]

So where does a Greyhawk fan go?

Just a suggestion and certainly nothing official or a replacement for published support but canonfire.com is a pretty good fan supported GH site that regularly makes available numerous fan created GH articles. Couldn't hurt to just take a look. Might be for you, might not.

 

[GVDammerung]

The problem though is that you need to communicate with gamers who are not familiar enough with neither FR or GH to easily pick up the differences. To them the settings share a similar veneer, or a similar medieval flavour.

When you look deeper, that might not be the case, but the battle for peoples attention will rarely give you that opportunity. So for many people, FR and GH are basically campaign settings in the same medieval tradition.

/M

QFT. Exactly! Very well said. It is for this reason I think GH must change/evolve/adapt. FR occupies the "medieval fantasy" mind space. For GH not to cannibalize the FR market or fracture the general "medieval fantasy" audience, GH needs to develop a take on "medieval fantasy" that will sufficiently distinguish it from FR, the trick being to retain the largest possible number of things that have made GH so enduring for so long. A tall order but off the top of my head, I can think of at least half a dozen designers I would trust with the job.

 

[MadMaxim]

And throwing in 2-4 pages of lore in an adventure book does not a FR sourcebook make. I am very appalled, in fact, by the statements on the back of the Anauroch: Empire of Shade book coming out in November. That it's both an adventure AND regional info on Anauroch? In 160 pages? Wow. So sad what Forgotten Realms is turning into now.

I agree with Razz here to a point. I haven't read any of the "Expedition to ..." books, so I don't know how much setting information and adventure you can put into one book without there being too little of either, but combining adventures and sourcebooks don't seem like the greatest idea ever in my book. When I'm DM'ing a campaign I need sourcebooks for information and adventures when I'm short on preparation time. I can only imagine that confusion will abound when you're starting to look through a sourcebook that's 80% adventure to find some setting information, especially in 160 pages. But that's just my two copper pieces...

 

[Mouseferatu]

The problem though is that you need to communicate with gamers who are not familiar enough with neither FR or GH to easily pick up the differences. To them the settings share a similar veneer, or a similar medieval flavour.

When you look deeper, that might not be the case, but the battle for peoples attention will rarely give you that opportunity. So for many people, FR and GH are basically campaign settings in the same medieval tradition.

Exactly. When it comes to sales of a new (or long absent) setting, especially the main book, it's all about perception. It doesn't matter what's true "beneath the surface" or "if you dig deeper." What matters is the impression that Joe Average Gamer, who's never looked into the setting before, comes away with from picking up the corebook, reading the back cover, and maybe flipping through the pages to see the artwork.

And on that level, without much/any prior knowledge, Greyhawk and FR (and, for that matter, Mystara and even Krynn) look an awfully lot alike.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Mystara's a good point, actually: Its means of differentiation (besides being for BD&D) was that it was developed for most of its history through regional gazetteers. If Greyhawk were reintroduced in this way -- maybe with a book on the Bandit Kingdoms or whatever the Shield Lands are called today -- it would be easier to show non-traditional flavors and locations off.

Of course, the last time around that this was tried, it didn't exactly explode off store shelves, but this was during the Glut Years, so it might be worth trying a test product.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Forgotten Realms has a lot of non-medieval cultures and lands to warrant enough differentiation. Calimshan, Old Empires, Chult Peninsula, Lantan, Ulgarth, Semphar, Murghom, Rashemen, Moonshaes, the Great Glacier...the list goes on. Medieval areas are mostly where in Faerun? Waterdeep, Tethyr, Damara, Impiltur, and Cormyr? A handful compared to the numerous lands and cultures populating the Realms?

Moonshaes is quite rooted in European legend that it should be lumped in with the list of regions considered medieval-esque. But there is so much more that is medieval to that list. Amn, Sword Coast and Western Heartlands, the North and the Silver Marches, Moonsea city-states, Dragon Reach and Sembia, the list goes on and on . . .

Needless to say Greyhawk has its non-medieval regions as well. Land of Black Ice, the Paynims, Amedio, Hepmonaland, northern Barbarian nomads, the Tilvanot Peninsula, Baklunish west including Ket, Zeif, Ekbir, and Tusmit.

Pardon for the attack of pedantry there.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Mystara's a good point, actually: Its means of differentiation (besides being for BD&D) was that it was developed for most of its history through regional gazetteers. If Greyhawk were reintroduced in this way -- maybe with a book on the Bandit Kingdoms or whatever the Shield Lands are called today -- it would be easier to show non-traditional flavors and locations off.

As an on-again, off-again, on-again regional Triad for the LG's Shield Lands region, I'd sign up to help such a product!

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Not really.

Forgotten Realms has a lot of non-medieval cultures and lands to warrant enough differentiation. Calimshan, Old Empires, Chult Peninsula, Lantan, Ulgarth, Semphar, Murghom, Rashemen, Moonshaes, the Great Glacier...the list goes on. Medieval areas are mostly where in Faerun? Waterdeep, Tethyr, Damara, Impiltur, and Cormyr? A handful compared to the numerous lands and cultures populating the Realms?

And even beyond Faerun, too, there's Al-Qadim, Maztica, Hordelands, and Kara-Tur.

So I really don't understand where people are getting the idea that FR and GH are "too similar" on a medieval-scope. I assume you're familiar enough with FR correct?

I was speaking in a very broad sense. Most people (who are not on these boards), the average gamer on the street that has played D&D for a few years probably can't tell the difference between Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Greyhawk

When you broaden further most people can't tell you the difference between Lords of the Rings and one of the D&D settings. To them its all just orcs and wizards.