long long post about my system of choice problem...

[Henrix]

It sounds to me like your best bet would be to go for D&D3 and tweak it as much as you want.

Of course you, as the DM, decide what rules and options are available!
Reread chapter one in the DMG if you want it in print.
Talk to the players before the campaign starts. If possible give them a couple of sheets listing all the rules and changes you want to use.

Or else go looking for some of the alternate d20/OGL systems that are out there; Blue Rose/True20, Thieves' World, Conan, etc. Any of them could be just what you are looking for.

 

[scruffygrognard]

C&C ?

You might want to give Castles & Crusades a look. It's a d20 game that tries (a little too hard) to have that old-school feel. It doesn't use feats, has an interesting take on skill use and allows for the easy porting of 1st edition adventures into it.

I've only played it 3 or so times and, despite a few grumbles about needlessly arbitrary rules, found it to be fun, easy to learn and grognard-friendly.

 

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

From your stated preferences, it seems you don't mind rules-heavy systems as long as they don't break when you chuck out the bits you don't like.
But, you also say you like Original D&D for it's Rules-Lightness.
So - if tinkerable rules-heavy is the goal, I don't have any ideas, since you're disenchanted with GURPS.
If you want fast, fun & furious and rules-light, you've got some good choices: C&C, as you've mentioned. Savage Worlds is a rip-roarer but you may have flavor issues with the magic system, given your posted desires. Moldvay Basic/Expert D&D could be a good choice in this vein, if you're not worried about it being out-of-print (and it seems from your post that you like having a stream of new stuff to buy?)

 

[der_kluge]

There are a lot of options available. Each has pros and cons.

Castles and Crusades might be just the thing you're looking for. Check out all the reviews (mine included) here: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=119800

Yes, it does have some typos, but I don't think they are huge. The bigger annoyance is the order in which the classes appear (Apparently in prime attribute order, not alphabetical order). A revision is coming out this winter. C&C is good because it's compatible with pretty much every flavor of D&D. It's not so great because it tends to be a "black box" with regards to the classes. Each class has a separate XP table, and there's no rules for knowing how that chart is based (it's not arbitrary), but how each chart was built, isn't included. So, if you want to modify a class, you have to just guess on how to adjust the XP chart. If they opened that up, it would be a lot more useful. Also, there are no feats, and no prestige classes, and the rules for multi-class and dual class are a bit shakey. And there are no rules for such in the core rules. You have to get Castle Zagyg for the latter, and the Troll Lord forums for the former. But, if you want a light, fast game, that's compatible with earlier editions, you might really like it.

HARP is nice because the system is really well-grounded, and internally balanced. HARP is expertly written, and the quality is really superb. The combat is really deadly, and it scales really well. So a 20th level HARP character isn't all that powerful compared to a d20 20th level character. Players have a lot of character creation flexibility. There are a lot of variant rules available for HARP as well. In fact, I just asked Rasyr for a d20-like combat mechanic, and he delivered in spades in Harper's Bazaar volume 4, which was just released. The downside to HARP is that it is less compatible with D&D modules and such, so you'd have to do a fair amount of conversion if you're going to run some 1st edition modules, for example. But, you can check out HARP for free, so there's really no excuse not to. Go here: http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3000L_HarpLite.pdf

Grim Tales is another option. Grim Tales is based on d20 modern. It's an open-ended system designed to run any genre of game, from fantasy to sci-fi. I admit that I haven't read very much of this book (I just haven't had the time), but from what I've seen it looks really good, and it gets a lot of praise on these boards, which says something. Grim Tales has a lot of options for making it more grim or more fantastical, which is really nice. It's a great system for low-magic style campaigns, which is the purpose of Grim Tales.

Yet another choice is True20, which is the core system found in the Blue Rose campaign Setting. I admit that I don't know much about True20 either, but the pdf is available for about $12, I think. True20 is based on feats. The classes are a bit more general, and you tailor them with feats. There is also a "damage save" mechanic which replaces hit points. It's quite unique, and gets a lot of praise here, but I've heard that it's a little hard converting older modules for it since it is quite a bit different.

There are others that people might recommend. Conan, Iron Heroes, or Arcana Unearthed are all good systems.

 

[Spell]

Being mainly a d20 site, the poll results will be 'weighted' in kind. It's only fair warning, which you probably don't need - just in case, kinda thing.

Personally, I'm quite a fan of customised (house-ruled and 'toolkitted') d20, but there's no way I'd suggest it to everyone out there.

i'm interested... how did you customise the system?

Have you looked at some of the slightly lower-magic campaign settings / rules supplements for d20? There are quite a few, and among them some real gems.

well, i have midnight 1st edition... which is fairly cool, i admit. i also found interesting core classes form a variety of sources both here on the net and from books...
but wouldn't it be a tad confusing for the players having to refer to a big number of sources to create their characters? i'm asking because, usually, when i DM/ GM there's only one, or maybe two books with all the character creation information and option in it, so it has never been a problem.
i genuinely don't know.

 

[Spell]

Sounds like what you’re looking for is a rules-lite game with the option to port other materials and game mechanics in order to suit your needs and style.

You might look into True20.

i'm hearing more and more about this and being from green ronin, i'm starting to become interested... it's only out on pdf, right?

 

[Spell]

So - if tinkerable rules-heavy is the goal, I don't have any ideas, since you're disenchanted with GURPS.

GURPS *is* great. if i was playing on a 100% homemade setting, or on their own, i would probably have no problem. but... i don't know, when i tried to play in mystara with a group of people in boston, it just didn't feel like the same atmosphere, at the table. maybe it had to do with the group.
also, having to convert all the adventures and the monsters into GURPS terms would kill me, as i don't have enough time to do so much preparation work.

i mentioned the rule lightness of O&D because, even without having a core mechanic, it kept things simple for the newbies. i don't know any gamer in newcastle, at the moment (maybe i haven't looked hard enough, though... i was REALLY busy last year), so anything that's easy to pick up automatically gains brownie points.

If you want fast, fun & furious and rules-light, you've got some good choices: C&C, as you've mentioned.

ok, now i really have to ask: are the typo really that bad and all over the place?
if not, i might really have a hard look into these things.

Moldvay Basic/Expert D&D could be a good choice in this vein, if you're not worried about it being out-of-print (and it seems from your post that you like having a stream of new stuff to buy?)

well, at the moment, the main problem is more having something that wouldn't force me to spend weeks of conversion work to do. of course it would be nice to have new adventures and geographical modules... but there might be enough on the net to keep me happy for some time. and if i manage to get new people into the hobby, i have tons of stuff that can be shipped here in newcastle from my home in italy.

 

[Spell]

A revision is coming out this winter.

this is very good to know!
i did read the review and it looked like the only problem i might have had were the typos (i'm really paranoid of my english going down in the toilet... )

True20 is based on feats. The classes are a bit more general, and you tailor them with feats.

mmmh... it looks like a kind of GURPS meet d20 game, from these two things...
at this point i think i'll either mess with d20, or wait to see the revised castle and crusade, or just go back to OD&D...

i wonder what the old school gamers would suggest. maybe they had my same problem, at some point. i have a hunch i know what diaglo would say...

 

[Rasyr]

mmmh... wasn't HARP derivative of rolemaster? i never liked that game.

derivative? No. related? Yes, but only in a shared base mechanic (which is very similar to the d20 /D&D3.x mechanic). HARP is actually a lot more flexible than RM ever was, and a lot easier to use as well.

also, when i took a casual look at the book in the shop, quite a long time ago, it seemed quite different from both AD&D and D&D. i have spent too much on those games to invest in something that would not be suable with them without some serious work. if i had to convert everything, i would probably do it with GURPS, but, as i said, a completely different system wouldn't make me feel i'm playing the "right" game, if you know what i mean.
maybe it's just a matter of metagaming and having the right players, i don't know...

Actually, if you are going to use D&D/d20 products with any game system (other than the one they were designed for), then HARP would actually be easier to convert to than GURPS. HARP uses a percentile based system (1-100), while D&D uses a similar system (1-20) just scaled back by a factor of 5. Conversion is not very difficult at all in the long run.

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, have you considered Warhammer? It's easy to learn, very gritty/old-skool in feeling (to me, anyway) and lots of fun. Depending on your tastes, it might be a little too high-lethality, though... but (both as player and as dm) I like high-lethality games.