Long Rambling Post about *Planar Binding*

[WizarDru]

I hope they get an overhaul - I would guess that it's a fairly popular spell, and WOTC must have received feedback on it. But I suspect that your experience with the arcane angel is pretty common - supplements (especially 3rd party ones) are full of creatures which can throw the spells out of whack quickly.

Quite true, but this is possible even with just the beings from the MM. My players summoned a Solar (who demanded the surrender of a 130,000 g.p Staff of Life as a tithe to Pelor), and he was extremely powerful, even amongst a group of 6 17th level characters.

Another blip that should be addressed is the issue of whether the target is on the same plane currently - if it is, then I rule the spell fails, but the spell description is less than clear. It could also lead to the scenario:

Well, I think this is where the new 'extra-planar' qualifier may come in handy. It is my belief, viewing the spell's admitedly vague wording, that the intention is that a circumstance modifier would get applied to spell, possibly beyond the 0-+6 numbers mentioned. The idea, I think, would not be that the creature could avoid the service, so much as he could avoid enforcing the intent of the service. That is to say, the bound creature's faithfulness in the servitude would be secured. For example:

The Burning Skin, A demonic acolyte: "Come forth, Ishgarik, general of the Flayed Legion, and serve me!"

Isgarik: "Who dares call me forth? Whose bones will I wear for my jewelry?"

The Burning Skin: "My bones you cannot have. Nor your freedom, until the service I demand is finished."

Isgarik: "You risk much, mortal. What is your purpose?"

The Burning Skin: "I wish the Duke of Celadia slain beyond hope of revival. He is protected by warriors and I would see him dead."

Isgarik: "Hmmph. So petty a thing. And what do you offer in return for this sad task you demand?"

The Burning Skin: "I offer you NOTHING. I will not consume your flesh and absorb your essence. You are a tool, and cannot resist my command. You will OBEY ME."

[quick contest of will, which the Balor loses]

Isgarik: "Very well. I shall return in one hour."

[time passes, and at the exact moment, one hour later, the Balor returns]

The Burning Skin: "Have you done as you were commanded? Show me the proof, that you may be freed."

Isgarik: "Here is your proof."

[drops a large rucksack on the floor]

Isgarik: "Inside you will find the head of your hated Duke. I slew the twenty paladins who guarded him before slaying him, as well. I enlisted the aid of some of those who serve to make him a zombie, so he cannot be raised, and then slew him again. I did other things to his body that will mar any who saw it for the rest of their days, as well."

The Burning Skin: [looking in the rucksack] "But there is more than one head in here. Did you bring me the head of some of his....GAH! NO!"

Isagarik: [laughing with a low rumble] "Her her her. What, do you not appreciate the head of your lady love, the duchess? Did you think I did not know why you compacted me, fool? I gave her even worse treatment than the duke. She shall never be yours except in foul mockery of life.
Surely you must have some love for your apprentice? He cried your name at the last, too. I killed him purely for sport. I also made sure that everyone who witnessed my slaughters knew the name of he who sent me, and where your tower stands. I suspect a force comes for you within the day."

The Burning Skin: [in shock]"Bu-bu-but...this is...you cannot..."

Isgarik: "Ignorant fool. I am a general of Hell. Did you think to force me to serve YOU? I am ancient and evil in ways you cannot pretend to know. You dared to summon me and then failed to offer the required supplication. Did you truly think the blade of Hell would not turn in your hand? You offered me no souls, no unspoilt minds or bodies....nothing. If you survive, know that Isgarik waits for you in the Abyss. My binding is undone.


I mean, if you try to force a powerful demon to do your bidding, just because you can, it doesn't mean it won't be twisted to defeat your actual purpose. Shomei clearly understands this, and it's still blown up in her face at least once. The letter of the law versus the spirit of it, methinks.

 

[Noir]

Will Saves

The Charisma check to break free of containment has great flavour – the battle of wills which ensues between captor and captive.

Does this mean that you have house ruled that one uses one's charisma modifier instead of one's wisdom modifier on will saves?
I have always thought that will saves should depend on charisma instead of wisdom, since I cannot see a connection between the power of will and wisdom.

 

[Hashmalum]

I have always thought that will saves should depend on charisma instead of wisdom, since I cannot see a connection between the power of will and wisdom.

I've always considered Wisdom to reflect two qualities: insight/perceptiveness and strength of character/willpower. Without strength of character, people tend to reject insights and perceptions that show that they don't measure up to their self-image, or that the world is not how they believe it to be. Neither Intelligence nor Charisma help people accept things they do not wish to accept and, in fact, will even hinder it. A high Charisma, low Wisdom character produces an "echo chamber" effect, where his superior Charisma convinces the people around him of his distorted view of reality, and he in turn seizes on their agreement as evidence that he must be right. (Cult leaders, charismatic dictators, and celebrities often fall into this category.) A high Intelligence, low Wisdom character uses his considerable reasoning capacity to come up with rationalizations to shore up his faulty worldview or self-image. (Cranks, quacks, and crackpots of every sort often fall into this category.) People lacking in Wisdom just can't see things that are right in front of their face--either literally or metaphorically--or don't have the strength of character to accept the truth (truth is almost always unpleasant), causing them to behave, in a word... foolishly. Which is the very opposite of Wisdom.

Now, consider what it takes to beat a charm spell, a typical use of a Will save. You need insight in order to realize, "Hey, this guy really isn't my friend" and willpower to throw off the spell's hold on your mind--in other words, Wisdom. Charisma (confidence and social skills) won't help; you can't talk your way out of a charm spell and confidence just means that you'll be REALLY SURE that you are, in fact, not magically influenced. Having Intelligence (analysis and learning ability) certainly won't help because the spell forcibly supplants what you know ("This guy is trying to kill us") with its own message ("He's your friend"). The pattern (realize what is happening, use willpower to make it not happen) repeats with other Will save effects.

 

[Olive]

This is a bump, so I can find it easily again. Some of this has changed substantially due to 3.5, so I thought I'd post soem thoughts on those changes later today.

 

[Olive]

3.5 Ch-ch-ch-changes...

This opens a whole can of worms in itself. Which creatures have specific names? I’d say pretty much all of them. Do imps have names? If some do not, can one therefore conjure a ‘generic’ imp? This leads to the line of whether there are ‘generic’ balors, pit fiends etc. I’m in favour of making the names important – they become a desirable commodity, personalize the outsider, add flavour, and so on.

Now this is the major change in 3.5 - now it specifically says you can call a generic version of the creature, or an individual. I personally hat ethis, and I'm goign to talk to my player who's likely to deal with this stuff this afternoon about house ruling it.

Certain outsiders might even ‘specialize’ in engaging with Prime Plane mages – it might be a smart career move for an aspiring devil. There is no reason to assume that all outsiders would resent being called.

Not 3.5 related, but I'm working with a default 'lawful = willing to be called, chaotic not so much' paradigm on this one.

Let’s assume for a moment a 14th level sorcerer with a penchant for conjuration. He has a Charisma of 22 (15 + 3 for level increases +4 enhancement) and the feat Spell Focus: Conjuration. Not what I would regard as a particularly heavily twinked character. The Save DC to resist his Planar Binding (the 7th level version, which calls 16 HD outsiders) is 25. If he elects to conjure a Balor (permissible by the spell), then the demon, with its Will Save of +13 has a 55% chance of failing its saving throw. If the spell fails, then the demon simply doesn’t appear.

One of the nice things about 3.5 is the way that the demons etc. now have more respectable ch scores. The balor now has a Cha of 26, not 16, and a will save of +19, not +13. Plus spell focus has been nerfed down to +1, makign the DC 24. So the Balor now has a much better (i'm no good at maths, 75% ish) chance of not being summoned. Or at least would if he was even able to be summoned. The balor has also gained 7HD, meaning that the nes Greater Planar Binding can't even get him. As a result, I'm goignt o use a glabrezu for the rest of this, with 12 HD, a will save of +11, and a cha of 20.the glabrezu has a 50% chance of getting called, so the sorceror still has a good chancwe of getting him with his 3 6th level spells a day.

If the Sorcerer has prepared an inscribed trap (no SR) with a dimensional anchor (no teleporting away), the only way in which the demon can escape is to attempt a Charisma check

Which is to say a DC of 33 – remember that specially prepared traps enjoy a +5 bonus on the Charisma check DC. The Balor isn’t going anywhere fast: a natural ‘20’ does not mean automatic success for an Ability Check. The depressing irony of the situation is that a 13th level Wizard with a Charisma of 11 still enjoys a DC of 25 for targets to break free of his binding. The Balor is captured once again.

The glabrezu has a +5 to the check, with a DC of 32. So I guess this one is still impossible. Against the wizard, the check is still 25, so the glabrezu has a slight chance.

So the Sorcerer has his Balor. Whilst, in theory, the Balor can attempt to break free, its Charisma is too low to make this possible. At this point, it might also be worth mentioning the fact that a quirk of this system is that very powerful outsiders with lower charisma (e.g. Balors) are theoretically less likely to break free from the trap of a well-prepared mage than those of less stature, but higher charisma (e.g. Succubi). Although with a DC in the high twenties or thirties, it will make little difference in practice.

It's worth noting that prety much no demon could escape from this trap these days, even with the farily accross the board CHa increases.

Note the can. What if the character opts not to attempt to strike a deal? He makes no Charisma check, thus he cannot roll a ‘1,’ ergo the creature is trapped permanently – at least, that’s one way of interpreting it.

I guess it's always trapped. I'm not sure there is any other possibility here.

Which Creatures are Allowed?

As it stands, the limiting factor on the various planar binding spells is the HD of the target creature – up to 24 HD for the most powerful version of the spell. Whilst this is presumably intended to be balanced with regard to the core rulebooks (although arguably is not), it starts to fray badly when powerful creatures from other supplements are included – the Klurichir from the FF and various creatures from the ELH spring to mind. Technically, they are permissible targets of greater planar binding. And what about creatures with the epic pseudonatural template from the ELH? They are outsiders, after all. Some will have less than 24 HD. Are they legitimate targets? I would say yes, but with certain provisos, detailed below.

I'd be interested to here people's reaction to the nerfed to all hell new HD limits for the spells. Now that the HD has been brough more in line with CR for outsiders, and greater planar binding has been given a 18 HD limit, there is no chance of calling the balors, solars, pit fiends or pusedotrolls of the campaign with out the use of gate. This doesn't actually bother me much.

As for Sep's fixes, I think that they are more or less still valid house rules, although the CR/HD one seems less urgent or relevent now.

What do others think?