Long Rambling Post about *Planar Binding*

I am disappointed in the D&D rules that there are fewer compulsion type spells once a demon/devil is summoned. There should be a few pain inducers or spirit wrackers that can be used on fiends to force them to comply without bargaining. Perhaps a powercheck to see if the mage can simply force a lower level fiend to do as they direct.

I have read several books where high level call casters and force them to do their bidding through pain or threat of pain. I cant imagine a high level caster who tolerate bargaining with an imp in order to get him to carry out a few easy tasks.
 

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I certainly back the CR vs. HD approach to things.

In a short game I ran (players of 10th level), the arch bad gal was a level 11th cleric. I really couldn't see a good reason for her not to have used planar ally to pull in a really big demon whose CR would be 4 or 5 greater than the party's level. She was doing her demonic god's work, so the negotiation part wouldn't be too hard to rationalize at all.

I would certainly look forward to modifications on these for 3.5, before the cleric in my party hits 11th level. I'm preparing contingency plans in my head in case she uses lesser planar ally which has a similar (if reduced) power-shift problem.

John
 

Random Possible Fixes

Sepulchrave II said:
[...]the only way in which the demon can escape is to attempt a Charisma check:

DC 15 + 1/2 the caster's level + the caster's Charisma modifier
These are just ideas off the top of my head. They may not be balanced or workable.

(1) Instead of a fixed DC 15 + modifiers above (the part in bold), use a 1d20 roll + modifiers to set the escape DC. This would introduce additional randomness into how difficult it is for the bound creature to escape. 75% of the time, the new DC would be equal to or less than that derived via the core rules.

(1a) Or, make it a 1d10 roll + modifiers to set the escape DC. With this variant, the escape DC would always be lower than that derived via the core rules.

(1) and (1a) would be somewhat anaologous to the optional "defense roll" rule in the DMG (p. 64).

(2) Allow the bound creature to use 1/2 its HD, or 1/2 its CR, as a modifier to its escape check. After all, if the caster gets to apply half his caster level, why shouldn't the bound creature get to apply the equivalent?

This rule would make binding high-HD (or high-CR) creatures more difficult.

A balor (13 HD, CR 18) would get a +6 or +9 modifier to its escape attempt, in addition to the +3 (Cha 16) it gets under the core rules.

Unfortunately, even a modifier of +12 wouldn't let the balor escape from the DC 33 binding set by the 14th level sorcerer in Sepulchrave's original post.

Using a combination of (1) and (2), the escape DC could range from a low of 14 (rolled 1 on d10 or d20 to set the escape DC, + 7 (half of caster level), + 6 (Cha 22)), in which case the balor has a very good chance to escape (minimum roll of 1, +6 or +9 from HD/CR, +3 (Cha 16)), to a high of 38 (rolled 20 on d20 to set the escape DC), in which case the balor is no worse off than it was under the core rules.
 

Also note that the balor is likely to get a big Charisma boost in 3.5e (the 3.5e pit fiend is Cha 26, for example), which ought to help.
 

There are certain dangers inherrant with pissing off higher hd outsiders anyway. Even if you -can- bind a Pit Fiend there are times when you just shouldn't.


Caster: I command you, Barrak'Thule, Guardian Lord of the Umbrous Flame bow to my demands! Pit Fiend, you shall go forth and lay ruin unto my enemies in the Fane of Erythnul's Blood~

Barrak'Thule (Pit Fiend): And what exactly is in this for me, mortal?

Caster: Your reward shall be your freedom, beast. The more quickly you tender your task, and faster you can speed back to your acursed home.

Barak'Thule: So, nothing then.

Caster: No. Nothing. You -shall- do my bidding, willing or not.

*starts the opposed charisma check.. which draws a stalemate as Caster is actally Caster the Wizard rather than Caster the Sorcerer*

Barrak'Thule: No, I don't think that I will do your 'bidding', mortal. Boy.. it's such a shame we have to deal with one another under these circumstances; it would be so much more preferable to be on more level terms....


.... I sure Wish this binding circle wasn't impeding me so ....
 

The Balor isn’t going anywhere fast: a natural ‘20’ does not mean automatic success for an Ability Check.

Might re-introducing this 1-in-20 be a good option, as a simple element?

John
 


What do you think of the planar ally suite of spells? Have you thought through the full implications of them as thoroughly as you have the bindings?

As mentioned, there is no PC cleric in my campaign, I haven't given it much thought - but as another poster pointed out, it is the deity who makes the choice of what to send, so the DM retains more control.

Under Demands of Service, if a spellcaster refused to make any demands for the day I'd still force the charisma check under the basis that choosing 'not to choose' is still a choice.

So would I - I was just pointing out that the spell could be interpreted another way. Unfortunately, planar binding has lots of ambiguities.

I've heard rumors (I think on the Andy Collins boards) that the various planar * spells are going to be reworked and clarified in the revised edition -which is good. In one recent session of mine, a cleric NPC called up an arcane angel from one of Monte Cook's Books of Eldritch Might, and the thing was incredibly powerful for a 4th level spell.

I hope they get an overhaul - I would guess that it's a fairly popular spell, and WOTC must have received feedback on it. But I suspect that your experience with the arcane angel is pretty common - supplements (especially 3rd party ones) are full of creatures which can throw the spells out of whack quickly.

(2) Allow the bound creature to use 1/2 its HD, or 1/2 its CR, as a modifier to its escape check. After all, if the caster gets to apply half his caster level, why shouldn't the bound creature get to apply the equivalent?

I used something similar for a long while. I also thought about turning into a Will Saving Throw. The FAQ states

Ability checks are likewise not subject to automatic
failure or success. (No matter how lucky you are, you are just
not going to kick down a castle wall.) If the DM feels that
chance might affect the outcome, a saving throw or attack roll
is probably more appropriate.

I have to admit, it is kind of nice to have that element of randomness - the best laid plans etc. But I like the charisma check for the raw 'battle of wills' flavour,' and it would be a shame to lose it. If you tinker with the SR as well, I think it can be meaningfully retained.

.... I sure Wish this binding circle wasn't impeding me so ....

You are a very mean DM :D I have to say I wouldn't be that nasty - who knows if the Pit Fiend has already used his wish for the year? But it leads to another question - will a wish break you out? Would a fiend be cautious of using a wish this way - he might get an over-literal interpretation.

Another thing that occurred to me and then subsequently forgot to add, is that a planar binding might be used by, say, a Demon to conjure a player character and confine him in the abyss - in fact, I wouldn't allow this, but I wonder if there has ever been any official word on it.

Another blip that should be addressed is the issue of whether the target is on the same plane currently - if it is, then I rule the spell fails, but the spell description is less than clear. It could also lead to the scenario:

Mage Player: I use discern location to find out where the balor is.
DM: It's on the Material Plane, in the city of Jeshat.
Mage Player: Damn. I'll have to plane shift to the elemental plane of air, and use my planar binding there.

This is how I'd play it, but it seems a bit contrived.
 

But it leads to another question - will a wish break you out? Would a fiend be cautious of using a wish this way?
Non-ambiguous formulation: "I wish that magic circle wasn't there."

Mage Player: I use discern location to find out where the balor is.
DM: It's on the Material Plane, in the city of Jeshat.
Mage Player: OK, I'll go there, banish him, and planar bound him back.
 


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