D&D 5E Long Rest is a Problem

pemerton

Legend
If the PCs begin each day fully topped off it just incentivises them to view themselves as hammers and every adventure opportunity as a nail.

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The decision to just kick some ass and plow through obstacles is a no brainer if all resources are tactical. There is no long term strategy to have to consider.

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Back in the old days, adventuring didn't stop because someone was down hit points. Decisions were made with care and combat was something to try and avoid but the adventure continued. Sure it makes sense to retreat if the whole party is banged up and low on resources but having set encounters expecting full resources is kind of the definition of asking for the 15 minute workday.
What empirical evidence is this based on? Or is it simply meant to be a reminder to 4e players (and some variants of 3E play) that they are not true roleplayers?

I GM a game in which a "long rest" restores all hit points, and all surges and other daily resources. It doesn't follow from that that the players do not have to engage in non-tactical play. For a start, establishing opportunities to take a long rest is not a tactical consideration; it is, in your language, a strategic one. And the players in my 4e game frequently find their PCs engaging situations in the gameworld, including dangerous physical or combat situations, on less than full hit points, or (which in 4e amounts to functionally the same thing, given that 4e combat relies up the players unlocking their PCs' surges) with less than their full suite of surge-unlocking resouces available.

Nor do the players in my 4e game have their PCs kill everything they meet. It seems to me - but perhaps I'm missing something - that a game in which the only reason the PCs don't engage in violence is because they're worried about being hurt themselves would be a rather shallow game, in which the PCs are self-serving pschopaths. The PCs in my game don't try and kill everything they meet for the same sorts of reasons that I, in my real life, have never tried to kill anyone - eg they have moral outlooks towards, and emotional connections with, other people. And stepping it up from the ingame to the metagame level, the players have their PCs do things other than fight because the players are interested in aspects of the mechanics other than combat, and aspects of the fiction other than fighting.

The idea of "set encounters" is also very playstyle specific. I don't know if it is identical with railroading, but it seems to have some affinities.

Which is why I proposed something like rolling all your HD to see how much you recover in HP (and others proposed getting back some hit points and all hit dice, so you could expend those hit dice to get back to full right away). Odds say you will, roughly, recover all your hit points anyway. It's just that it would introduce some amount of chance that you could have a slightly more lingering type of injury, which makes the game far more emulative of a certain playstyle enjoyed by the other editions of D&D. It's a compromise - one that is a relatively minor change for 4e players, but the reverse is a relatively major change for non-4e players (for the reasons I've stated above).
As best I have been following it, D&Dnext is actually a huge change already for 4e players - at the heart of 4e's healing mechanics is the requirement for players to unlock their PCs' healing surges during combat. This is a big change from classic D&D (I don't know 3E well enough to compare to it) because it replaces an attrition model of hit point loss with a completely different in-combat dynamic, which has both tactical ("gamist") elements and pacing ("narrativist") elements, and locates the attrition dynamic in healing surges and daily healing abilities. So rather than having hit points suffer attrition over the course of the day, the availability of surges to unlock suffers attrition (through loss of surges themselves, and through loss of surge unlocking abilities like Lay on Hands, potions, etc).

D&Dnext doesn't seem to me to have anything comparable to this.

Of course, none of the above is a rebuttal of your idea about how recovery should work. I'm not sure I agree with your argument, but I don't reject it either - I don't have a good enough feel for the dynamics of D&Dnext. What I'm trying to convey is that I don't think that framing your argument in terms of minor/major departures from 4e play is very helpful to setting it out, at least from the perspective of this 4e GM.

it has significant ramifications for things like 1) the inability of WOTC to use all those dozens of 1e adventures that they've been busily stating up (none assume full hit points every day),

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WOTC has been stating out 1e modules lately, for example. Given that all editions of D&D except 4e required either the expenditure of a limited resource or luck to get back to full hit points after a 8 hours rest, I think it makes sense to make the default at least something less than 100% certainty of full recovery.
I think this needs more unpacking.

For instance, in Tomb of Horrors or any other fundamentally non-reactive dungeon (White Plume Mountain would be another example, wouldn't it?), there is no practical bar to beginning every ingame day, or indeed every encounter, with full resources: you just declare your rest, your expenditure of healing spells, and your re-rest, and the GM ticks off the requisite number of days. It's true that wandering monsters (none in ToH, but it's unusual in this respect) might upset that dynamic, if they ablate more hit points per hour than you recover spells per hour, but particulalry at mid-to-high levels, and if the GM is following Gygax's advice about modulating wandering monsters to PC activity, that is a fairly big "if". And of course there is also Rope Trick, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Daern's Instant Fortress, etc.

Even a module like B2 seems, in practice, to make it pretty straightforward to PCs to begin every venture into the Caves on full hit points and spells. For your long rest you pull back to the Keep - which the humanoids don't assault, at least by default - and stay there til everyone's at max hp and spells. The healing dynamic of B2, and the difference in pacing and attrition between (say) classic D&D and 4e, seems to play out at the "short rest" level, not the "long rest" level.

The Slaver modules played as an ongoing campaign, in which the PCs are operating in hostile territory on the Wild Coast and in the Pomarj, might be an example of an AD&D module which does having the "long rest" dynamics that you are pointing to. But it seems to me this makes it a bit distinctive among those classic AD&D modules.

From my point of view, I see the situation a bit differently. It's not that all-better-in-a-day healing makes these classic modules unplayable. It's that it changes their fiction. Instead of taking a month of steady action, rest and recovery to clear the ToH, it takes a week. Instead of retreating to the Keep and resting for a week or so, the PCs head out the next day (and hence the fictional constraints on changes the GM can make to the Cave environment are greater). It seems to me that this is the strongest argument for your viewpoint, but perhaps I've misunderstood you.
 

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the Jester

Legend
I've almost never seen a 3e party start the day with less than full hp, they could use their wands or their excess spells to heal before they went to sleep. Sometimes someone would say "I'm only down 10, it's not worth wasting a spell". But for the most part everyone was full.

It's probably a playstyle thing; I don't really have magic shops with easily-available magic items for sale, and although the pcs in my game sometimes took item creation feats, they were usually a bit higher level by then and focused more on wondrous items, weapons and armor.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
It's probably a playstyle thing; I don't really have magic shops with easily-available magic items for sale, and although the pcs in my game sometimes took item creation feats, they were usually a bit higher level by then and focused more on wondrous items, weapons and armor.
I'd say only a bit. In our home games almost no one bought wands. They weren't worth the money because you ALWAYS had free spells after about 7th level. So, before we went to bed, our cleric would just spontaneously cast all their remaining spells as cure spells to make sure everyone was full. Most of the time there were so many spells left over that they could have healed the whole party to full 3 or 4 times.

The reason I mention wands in particular is because we were allowed to freely buy them in Living Greyhawk and since the composition of your party was decided at the beginning of each adventure, you couldn't even be certain that your group would HAVE a cleric, so everyone bought at least one wand if not two. People would take one level of Cleric just to be able to use the wands...just in case.
 

KidSnide

Adventurer
NOT ASKING FOR FULLY MODELED LINGERING INJURY: Nobody is asking for a way to fully model long lasting lingering injuries in this game. That's not this game, I agree. The issue is this: On a scale of how you would set natural healing to start each day, on one side you have zero natural healing (which would be much closer to a long lasting lingering injury), and on the other you have full natural healing every day (which is as far as you can get from a long lasting lingering injury). All I am asking for (and many others) is that the default not be set at that extreme of full natural healing every day. That way, while there is not a fully modeled lasting lingering injury, at least there is a chance for a tiny little dose of it. Some way for the DM to say "Well, your arm is still bugging you a bit from that Owlbear who clawed you there, so you're not at max, and you will need to expend a resource to healing fully up if that is an issue".

I'm with [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] on this. A lingering injury ruleset is conceptually interesting, but I've never seen one interesting enough to want and simple enough to use.

Instead, what I'd like to see is more attention paid to slower healing paradigms and the default set to something less than "full reset every night". It's nothing more than a preference for the 1e/2e healing model over the 3.x+CLW/4e model.

-KS
 

Warbringer

Explorer
I'm with [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]Instead, what I'd like to see is more attention paid to slower healing paradigms and the default set to something less than "full reset every night". It's nothing more than a preference for the 1e/2e healing model over the 3.x+CLW/4e model.

-KS
Agreed, but I'm still pondering why the throttle around long and short rest doesn't do the trick. Now I do get [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]'s concern that more wandering monsters creates more risk for the resting party, but long rests require the condition "safe" and it should be a simple rule that "safe" reduces the risk of wandering monsters by, oh 90% or whatever.

As to the default being so fast, I think that's a tactical decision for "basic" and its target audience where less than full hit points may be perceived as "badwrongfun"
 

SageMinerve

Explorer
As for "the only simple solution is magic" portion of your answer, I disagree. There are other simple solutions, and we've discussed a series of them. You could roll for how many hit points you get back, introducing an element of chance. You could get back some hit points and all your hit dice, introducing the expenditure of a limited resources that is not magical in nature. There are simple ways to introduce a mechanic that at least allows for a chance, however small, that you will not start the day at full hit points and must expend a limited resource to get back to full.

When I say that "the only simple solution is magic", I meant (and it follows from the rest of my post) that it's the only simple solution that doesn't break immersion for a lot of people.

If all you're looking for is a way to have healing that won't necessarily heal completely overnight, well of course there are simple solutions.

It just won't make sense if you consider that characters don't have supernatural regenerative capabilities...
 


Ubafeesh

First Post
Vet DM here...like playing since D&D was invented. Here is what we do in our game: 1) Eliminated HD healing entirely. 2) Made healing kits valuable by granting con+level by expending a healing kit use. 3) Long rest only cures your con x level in hp. 4) Short rest can reduce 1 level of exhaustion as can a long rest. 5) Falling to 0 hp invokes 1 level of exhaustion. This has worked out very well so far. The players feel challenged and manage resources better. The artificer is functioning very well as a healer in creating potions. This hasn't slowed down our game one bit.
 


darjr

I crit!
Seven years. My gosh.

anyway I started 5e with the intent of using something, wounds or slow healing, something.
But after all this time I can’t even remember if I ever ran a game doing so.

Long rest works just fine and doesn’t ruin the game.
 

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