LONG REST: let's add some realism.

[Gadget]

Well, that's demonstrably wrong. In Chainmail, one hit was death. In OD&D, you got 1d6 hit points per level and damage was 1d6 for each weapon, the inference being each hit was actually physical damage. AD&D broke with this and inflated HP progression and then came up with the idea that HP were both, but BECMI indicated that HP were damage. 2E specifically calls it as damage only, and 3E shifted back into the nebulous area that AD&D occupied, and 4E sort of did the same, but tried to take down the physical side of HP at bloodied/half max HP. So, you're actually incorrect in the "never" point of that statement.

I don't see how this is 'demonstrably wrong', with the possible exception of Chainmail.
Though the numbers vary in editions, in each edition (save 4th were you got more starting hp and fixed increase every level) you can potentially double your body's ability to take weapon hits by going from 1st to 2nd level, followed by a rather linear progression to 'name level' where it levelled off a bit. There was never any penalty to being 'wounded' other than being that much closer to that arrow, sword strike, or spell with your name on it. I could perhaps buy the "fighting through the pain" argument if hit points didn't increase so dramatically over levels and the fact that there is no debilitating effects whatsoever as long as one Hit Point remains. So in practice, despite whatever verbiage any particular edition dressed up the concept of Hit Points in, the end result was the same: a poor model of physical wounds, yet a convenient and rather simple to use abstraction.

As for the exertion with regards to spell casting, you are of course correct, I was merely pointing out that nothing from a simulationist/realism perspective prevented such a mechanical system from being implemented (such as spell points, mana, etc.) But that was more of a theoretical musing, and I would hesitate before advocating such a departure from tradition for D&D Next.

And I didn't use the word "realism" now did, I? And I agree with your parenthetical.

No, you did not, and I apologise if I misinterpreted or misread your position, but given the title of the thread and that fact that your arguments seemed to be coming from the Hit Points = Physical wounds faction, I assumed that realism (to a degree) was the crux of your position about Hit Points.

 

[Ranganathan]

So is the answer to remove any attempts at verisimilitude? I mean, if that's the case, then why shouldn't everyone be playing Super-Ninja-Merlin-Wolverine? Or give everyone 25000 Hit Points and the innate ability to fly and shoot lightning bolts from their ass?

So 20th level D&D is completely unrealistic. Good to know.

No one is asking for a game that simultaneously emulates degree programs in engineering, medicine, particle physics, fluid-dynamics, English literature, history, and sociology. We just want a nod in the direction, something that's seemingly plausible.

Read the playtest packet again. Hit points are not representative of bits of flesh being torn off your character when they take damage. Hit points are a mix of several factors. Read the description of what half hit points means, read the description of what 0 hit points mean. It's only a real injury once you hit 0. Half hp only means you're winded, bruised, and have a few minor cuts. You have to have at least 1 hit point to engage in a rest to recover, i.e. on your feet and not really injured. That's realistic.

Once you drop to zero (or below) you're in a world of hurt. As the packet describes them this too is realistic. If you skipped reading the description of hit points and are assuming they mean chunks of flesh and spouts of blood, re-read the section. Page 12, bottom right. Hit points do not mean what you think they mean. If you were right, it wouldn't be realistic to recover them all overnight. You're wrong, however. Hit points are not pounds of flesh until you reach 0 hp. Recovering from minor cuts and bruises after a 6-8 rest is more realistic than D&D has ever been.

Magical healing brings you back from the brink of death and mends your grievous wounds. Putting you back to 1--or above. After that, the rest are minor cuts and scrapes. Again, realistic to recover from overnight.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The argument that you should take longer to recover hp because it takes longer to recover from physical injuries is a bit specious, since no injuries are ever taken in D&D. More specifically, characters in D&D when the take hp damage aren't physically injured in any reliable manner.

It is my belief that if one wants injuries to recover from, one needs to add injuries to the game first. It only makes sense.

Compare to Combat & Tactics (2e) where critical hits had a chance to inflict some kind of specific damage - a broken arm or a smashed skull. Those had real penalties to go with them and specific injuries to recover from. I think that would be the way to go if one desires And, just to be abundantly clear here, Combat & Tactics was my favorite 2e book.

So, I would say take the OP's suggestion, and make it so that a critical hit inflicts a random injury. Injuries have specific penalties associated with them. You can regain your full complement of hit points with a good night's rest, but real injuries take longer to heal or require specific magic (mend minor wound or somesuch).

 

[Mercutio01]

Read the playtest packet again. Hit points are not representative of bits of flesh being torn off your character when they take damage. Hit points are a mix of several factors. Read the description of what half hit points means, read the description of what 0 hit points mean. It's only a real injury once you hit 0. Half hp only means you're winded, bruised, and have a few minor cuts. You have to have at least 1 hit point to engage in a rest to recover, i.e. on your feet and not really injured. That's realistic.

<snip>

Hit points do not mean what you think they mean. If you were right, it wouldn't be realistic to recover them all overnight. You're wrong, however. Hit points are not pounds of flesh until you reach 0 hp. Recovering from minor cuts and bruises after a 6-8 rest is more realistic than D&D has ever been.

Magical healing brings you back from the brink of death and mends your grievous wounds. Putting you back to 1--or above. After that, the rest are minor cuts and scrapes. Again, realistic to recover from overnight.

Yes, that is what the playtest packet says, but that's not what Mearls said in the post on Hit Points. It's also not what 4E says about hit points. And my argument is that even in 1E, positive hit points had a portion of which were actual representations of physical ability to take damage. The outlier here is the idea that you suffer zero damage until dropped below 0 HP. Even the actual written by the designer didn't go that far. And if the honest-to-god argument you're all putting forth is that damage is never damage, and a hit is never a hit until below 0 hit points, then you really need to argue for a change in terminology. Until you change the definition of what "hit" means and what "damage" means, you are always going to be fighting these kinds of battles with people like me. Your interpretation is literally (as in the actual sense of that word) not even supported by the game's terminology.

Seriously. Change the terms. Erase "hit" and "damage" and "hit point" from the D&D Lexicon if you really want to enforce this viewpoint on people.

EDIT- Incidentally, I did just reread. At less than half your hit points, you have visible cuts and bruises. Those are injuries. Don't know about you, but bruises don't usually go away just because I take a nap. Neither do cuts. When I wake up, I still have those bruises. Sometimes they even still hurt. When I twist my ankle, it hurts the next day, and I limp a little bit. But according to the 0 hp is an actual injury folks, I must have been dropped below 0 hit points in order to twist my ankle. Or to have blocked a good punch at martial arts practice that leaves a welt and a bruise on my forearm.

 

[Walking Dad]

If we go back to slow HP recovery without magic, because it was this way in older editions, why not also go back to old casting times (in minutes) and spell preparation (level *10/15)?

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For below 0 HP being injured, remember that the casting of any healing spell brings you currently back to full capabilities. 1 HP means you are less injured than a twisted ankle, because this would hinder you. So, should you heal back in one night from "feeling fine" (1 HP) to "feeling fine" (Full HP)? Why not? Realism?

 

[Walking Dad]

...

EDIT- Incidentally, I did just reread. At less than half your hit points, you have visible cuts and bruises. Those are injuries. Don't know about you, but bruises don't usually go away just because I take a nap. Neither do cuts. ...

Why do you think that back to full HP is the same as having no "cosmetic" injuries?

 

[Mercutio01]

If we go back to slow HP recovery without magic, because it was this way in older editions, why not also go back to old casting times (in minutes) and spell preparation (level *10/15)?

I probably wouldn't have a problem with that either.

---

For below 0 HP being injured, remember that the casting of any healing spell brings you currently back to full capabilities. 1 HP means you are less injured than a twisted ankle, because this would hinder you. So, should you heal back in one night from "feeling fine" (1 HP) to "feeling fine" (Full HP)? Why not? Realism?

I don't buy this argument, particularly from 4E fans who insist that playing the game when you have no healing surges left is the same thing as playing hurt. You aren't feeling fine. Your offensive skills may be working just fine, but your defensive skills are obviously very, very weak.

I mean, you guys are the ones saying that HP only represent luck and skill. If that's the case, then a fighter with 1 HP is definitely not fine. He's extremely winded, and down on his luck. He's not fighting at full strength and doesn't feel fine.

Why do you think that back to full HP is the same as having no "cosmetic" injuries?

Why do you think bruises and cuts are only cosmetic injuries?

 

[Mercutio01]

This piece of the chat session that was posted here is something that I thought could use separate notice in this thread.

Mearls: We erred on the side of letting long rests heal everything, primarily because we were fairly split on how to treat it. Personally, I'd like to see a rule where you get back a certain amount of hit dice each extended rest. It might be based on Con and/or class. I have to admit that the current rule picks at my sense of realism.​

The second to last sentence is interesting, but I still think limiting HP and not Hit Dice is my preferred feeling, but that last sentence says all I really need to know. Even the lead designer has problems with long rests, and he even uses the word "realism," which I've avoided using because it's such a contentious word. (I generally prefer "verisimilitude.")

Although his next line is admittedly more in keeping with what the 0HP people seem to be saying.

To follow-up what Jeremy said, I've toyed with a wound system where you get some effect each time you drop below 0 hp, to represent a bad injury, For instance, broken bones, strained joints, concussions, etc. But that would be a rules module.​

Jeremy Crawford: This is another example (the long rest) of us leading with the powerful version of something with the expectation that we might end up dialing it back, based on playtest feedback​

This is also promising from my perspective.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It is all "metagame reasoning". It is all arbitrary. Decide what will be fun for you based on how it will play at your table.

IMO, those who like the tactical resource management grinds (count me in!) will probably find it more interesting if only 25% of your resources refresh after every night. The problem here is how to do the bookkeeping, but certainly spell slots and HD and HPs could be handled this way.

Those who hate bookkeeping should go with full refresh every 24 hours.

FWIW, there are fantasy game systems that are (IMNSHO) deep and rich with texture, where casting spells tends to cost you "hit points" (sort of). In fact, in most of these systems the only limit on how many spells you can cast in a day is when the wizard falls over unconscious (or the stack of fatigue penalties is so great attempting to cast is pointless). The idea that mental effort is divorced from physical effort is based on fundamentally weak reasoning.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

If we go back to slow HP recovery without magic, because it was this way in older editions, why not also go back to old casting times (in minutes) and spell preparation (level *10/15)?

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Yes, please.