Voadam
Legend
The War with Chaos and the follow up epic Dragon Overlords who infuse dragonness into surrounding beasts give some good stuff to work with for thematic monsters.
D&D 2E Looking back at the Monstrous Compendia: the MC appendices, Monstrous Manual, and more!
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
One thing I forgot to mention was how much later Dragonlance lore retconned what's said about the draconians in MC4.
Their monster entry here, for instance, specifies that draconians are abishai from Takhisis' realm inhabiting transmogrified dragon fetuses that were aborted in their eggs. It tells us that there are both male and female draconians, with there being no substantial differences between them. And it says that while it's too soon to be sure, draconians don't seem to age, and are presumed to be able to live upwards of a thousand years.
All of these are things that were undone in later novels, particularly The Doom Brigade and Draconian Measures, both by Weis and Perrin (the latter book had 3E stats for draconians, months before we'd see the baaz in "The Anvil of Time" in Dungeon #86, and years before the Bestiary of Krynn would come out, let alone its Revised version). Now, draconians are sapient mortals with their own souls; the creators of their race deliberately made all draconians male, but produced female draconians which they elected not to hatch from the stolen dragon eggs; and draconians apparently age only somewhat slower than humans (at least if the glimpse of Kang that we saw at the end of Weis's Amber and Blood is any indication).
Given that Dragonlance seems to have quite a few tales that are either quietly ignored, outright non-canon, or are part of some alternate timeline, I suppose it's no surprise that this soft reboot went through with virtually no push-back whatsoever.
Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
Voadam
Legend
Of note, 1e Dragonlance Adventures by Hickman and Weiss page 73:
The corruption of the eggs is the work of an evil triad, Wyrllish the cleric, Dracart the mage, and the ancient red dragon Harkiel, the Bender. Through arcane spells they cause the eggs to grow and their occupants to multiply. Then Wyrllish opens the gate to the Abyss and the abishai, the Dark Queen's minions, rush forth to inhabit the new bodies. Draconians are creatures of magical origin and when they are slain, the odd enchantments that formed them create spectacular death scenes (see the draconian descriptions).
The corruption of the eggs is the work of an evil triad, Wyrllish the cleric, Dracart the mage, and the ancient red dragon Harkiel, the Bender. Through arcane spells they cause the eggs to grow and their occupants to multiply. Then Wyrllish opens the gate to the Abyss and the abishai, the Dark Queen's minions, rush forth to inhabit the new bodies. Draconians are creatures of magical origin and when they are slain, the odd enchantments that formed them create spectacular death scenes (see the draconian descriptions).
QuentinGeorge
Legend
It was during 2E that the setting began to shy away from the abishai soul explanation, a small part of the fact that the canon of the setting was increasingly being set by the novels (which never had any of the info about the abishai) not the RPG material.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Our next MC is one that tries to resolve a paradox which goes to the heart of its campaign world: what's special and unique about a setting whose claim to fame is that it typifies the default (or dare I say, generic) characteristics of the game it's made for?
Yes, it's time to take a look at MC5 Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix.
Greyhawk was one of those settings which, looking back now, I think I admired more than I actually liked. Or at least, that was how I felt at the time; now that I have a much greater knowledge of – and respect for – the game's history, I'd like to say that I have a much greater appreciation of the setting. But at the time, most of what I knew of it was its vaunted history as the first campaign world (learning much later that Blackmoor would contest that claim, making it rather pointed how Greyhawk subsumed Blackmoor into its setting), and that it was the home world of those many mages whose names were among the spells in the PHB, such as tenser's transformation and bigby's interposing hand.
I was impressed by that, and I recall spending quite a few years trying to find a copy of From the Ashes that was both complete and affordable. But in my early years with D&D, it wasn't really enough to match how taken I was with the brutal savagery of Athas, the expansive weirdness of Planescape (which had just come out), and the misty horrors of Ravenloft. As it is, I suspect that I bought this mostly because I was already aware that the unified AD&D multiverse meant that creatures in one world could appear in another (I've mentioned it before, but I'll reiterate how back then, I felt that buying supplements for a particular setting was like buying tires before purchasing the car; thankfully, I made myself get over that fast, though I suspect that the whole "multiverse" angle helped with that).
So what can be said specifically about the monsters of MC5?
Well, at the risk of turning this into a common refrain for these look-backs, there are quite a few duds here. Though to be fair, there are apparently quite a few generic monsters from AD&D 1E being shuffled in here. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like crypt things (these guys split the party whether the characters want to or not!), hook horrors (maybe it's just me, but they've always felt like the sort of weird monsters the Underdark should have), grells (freaking brain-tentacle-beak monsters that seem properly Lovecraftian without being cosmic or existentialist), scarecrows (though having them be constructs never sat quite right with me; those things should either be undead or some kind of wicked fey), and a bunch of others that are in this volume, but they're just not Greyhawk in feel.
The problem is that, as noted before, "Greyhawk in feel" isn't really distinct from "D&D in feel."
And yet, this book does manage to have several monsters that evoke this particular campaign world. I mean, just look at the Greyhawk dragon; it's practically a living billboard for the setting (although I seem to recall it was later said to be the "steel dragon" on other worlds). There are grugach elves and valley elves, both unique to Oerth, and while it wouldn't happen for decades, the Son of Kyuss eventually built up to its own adventure path in Dungeon magazine (which was nominally set on Oerth, even if it was technically generic, which is actually appropriate since that monster came from the AD&D MM2). The crystalmist has an entire mountain range named after it (or vice versa, I confess I'm not entirely clear which came first). And of course, slow shadows (which always made me snicker; I know that they were named for how they hit you with an effect like a slow spell, but it still always made me think that these were the shadows who had to repeat their freshman year) are from MG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, of which my copy bearing Gary's autograph still sits proudly on my shelves.
But make no mistake, there are still a lot of monsters here which made no impression either on me personally or on the game as a whole. Like, does anyone remember the igundi? It's basically a lizardman who wraps themselves in an illusion of the person you most desire, and uses that to lure you in and eat you, which is rather lame; at least the succubus actually put out. Spriggans always felt like they wanted to be to gnomes what drow are to elves, but they never quite pulled it off (probably because gnomes were never that cool to anyone, hence why they were made into a monster in 4E); also why are they called out as being "giant-kin" here? Beastmen are basically cavemen except furry and highly magic-resistant. The horgar seems like a poor man's purple worm. The death watch beetle is a TPK waiting to happen (everyone within thirty feet, save vs. death magic or die; at least it can only do it once every couple of hours). Even the gremlins are just "meh."
To a large extent, I think that a lot of this is symptomatic of Greyhawk itself. The setting's footprint has always been more meta-contextual (i.e. been more about the history of TSR, Gygax, and D&D) than in-character. While virtually all of the game's most classic adventures have been set there, they told us very little about the setting as a setting. Sure, we all picked up bits from modules such as T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil and S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, among others, but they always felt like very tiny pieces of a puzzle that wasn't ever really put together.
And that was much truer at the beginning of the 90s than it is today. Sure, the World of Greyhawk had been released twice (once as a folio, then as a boxed set) in the early 80s, and AD&D 2E saw the fairly quick release of Greyhawk Adventures (which was sort of a hybrid 1E/2E book), The City of Greyhawk, Greyhawk Wars, and From the Ashes (the latter of which would kick off Carl Sargent's run of the setting, which today remains my favorite take on it)...but while each of these fleshed out the setting more, it all seemed to come too late and detail too little. The Flanaess is a single sub-continent where all the action happens; it's like presenting a "World of Earth" setting that's stubbornly focused on India; at some point, the single sub-continent starts to feel provincial.
To be fair, 3E tried to fix that with its Chainmail skirmish game (no relation to Gygax's fantasy rulebook of the same name from a few decades prior) in the early days of 3E, but by then it was already too late.
All of which is to say that MC5 does manage to encapsulate the spirit of Greyhawk, but does so in a way that highlights the setting's deficiencies more than its strengths. In a way, this book is the perfect microcosm of the tragedy of Greyhawk, in that it has several highlights which ultimately aren't enough to carry it to lasting glory. Shadow dragons and swordwraiths can't stand up to page after page of bookas, grungs, needlemen, and yet more giant versions of normal creatures: iguanas, turtles, crows, dragonflies, etc. It all just-
...wait, this is the product that gave us AD&D 2E stats for the grippli? Quite possibly the cutest little monster in all of D&D?
Oh my gosh, he's so adorable! Look at him with that tiny little sword and his "grr, I'm fierce!" expression! Even his name sounds like something Mister Rogers came up with!
Forget what I said before: MC5 is indispensible to your AD&D 2E game.
Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
Yes, it's time to take a look at MC5 Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix.
Greyhawk was one of those settings which, looking back now, I think I admired more than I actually liked. Or at least, that was how I felt at the time; now that I have a much greater knowledge of – and respect for – the game's history, I'd like to say that I have a much greater appreciation of the setting. But at the time, most of what I knew of it was its vaunted history as the first campaign world (learning much later that Blackmoor would contest that claim, making it rather pointed how Greyhawk subsumed Blackmoor into its setting), and that it was the home world of those many mages whose names were among the spells in the PHB, such as tenser's transformation and bigby's interposing hand.
I was impressed by that, and I recall spending quite a few years trying to find a copy of From the Ashes that was both complete and affordable. But in my early years with D&D, it wasn't really enough to match how taken I was with the brutal savagery of Athas, the expansive weirdness of Planescape (which had just come out), and the misty horrors of Ravenloft. As it is, I suspect that I bought this mostly because I was already aware that the unified AD&D multiverse meant that creatures in one world could appear in another (I've mentioned it before, but I'll reiterate how back then, I felt that buying supplements for a particular setting was like buying tires before purchasing the car; thankfully, I made myself get over that fast, though I suspect that the whole "multiverse" angle helped with that).
So what can be said specifically about the monsters of MC5?
Well, at the risk of turning this into a common refrain for these look-backs, there are quite a few duds here. Though to be fair, there are apparently quite a few generic monsters from AD&D 1E being shuffled in here. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like crypt things (these guys split the party whether the characters want to or not!), hook horrors (maybe it's just me, but they've always felt like the sort of weird monsters the Underdark should have), grells (freaking brain-tentacle-beak monsters that seem properly Lovecraftian without being cosmic or existentialist), scarecrows (though having them be constructs never sat quite right with me; those things should either be undead or some kind of wicked fey), and a bunch of others that are in this volume, but they're just not Greyhawk in feel.
The problem is that, as noted before, "Greyhawk in feel" isn't really distinct from "D&D in feel."
And yet, this book does manage to have several monsters that evoke this particular campaign world. I mean, just look at the Greyhawk dragon; it's practically a living billboard for the setting (although I seem to recall it was later said to be the "steel dragon" on other worlds). There are grugach elves and valley elves, both unique to Oerth, and while it wouldn't happen for decades, the Son of Kyuss eventually built up to its own adventure path in Dungeon magazine (which was nominally set on Oerth, even if it was technically generic, which is actually appropriate since that monster came from the AD&D MM2). The crystalmist has an entire mountain range named after it (or vice versa, I confess I'm not entirely clear which came first). And of course, slow shadows (which always made me snicker; I know that they were named for how they hit you with an effect like a slow spell, but it still always made me think that these were the shadows who had to repeat their freshman year) are from MG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, of which my copy bearing Gary's autograph still sits proudly on my shelves.
But make no mistake, there are still a lot of monsters here which made no impression either on me personally or on the game as a whole. Like, does anyone remember the igundi? It's basically a lizardman who wraps themselves in an illusion of the person you most desire, and uses that to lure you in and eat you, which is rather lame; at least the succubus actually put out. Spriggans always felt like they wanted to be to gnomes what drow are to elves, but they never quite pulled it off (probably because gnomes were never that cool to anyone, hence why they were made into a monster in 4E); also why are they called out as being "giant-kin" here? Beastmen are basically cavemen except furry and highly magic-resistant. The horgar seems like a poor man's purple worm. The death watch beetle is a TPK waiting to happen (everyone within thirty feet, save vs. death magic or die; at least it can only do it once every couple of hours). Even the gremlins are just "meh."
To a large extent, I think that a lot of this is symptomatic of Greyhawk itself. The setting's footprint has always been more meta-contextual (i.e. been more about the history of TSR, Gygax, and D&D) than in-character. While virtually all of the game's most classic adventures have been set there, they told us very little about the setting as a setting. Sure, we all picked up bits from modules such as T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil and S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, among others, but they always felt like very tiny pieces of a puzzle that wasn't ever really put together.
And that was much truer at the beginning of the 90s than it is today. Sure, the World of Greyhawk had been released twice (once as a folio, then as a boxed set) in the early 80s, and AD&D 2E saw the fairly quick release of Greyhawk Adventures (which was sort of a hybrid 1E/2E book), The City of Greyhawk, Greyhawk Wars, and From the Ashes (the latter of which would kick off Carl Sargent's run of the setting, which today remains my favorite take on it)...but while each of these fleshed out the setting more, it all seemed to come too late and detail too little. The Flanaess is a single sub-continent where all the action happens; it's like presenting a "World of Earth" setting that's stubbornly focused on India; at some point, the single sub-continent starts to feel provincial.
To be fair, 3E tried to fix that with its Chainmail skirmish game (no relation to Gygax's fantasy rulebook of the same name from a few decades prior) in the early days of 3E, but by then it was already too late.
All of which is to say that MC5 does manage to encapsulate the spirit of Greyhawk, but does so in a way that highlights the setting's deficiencies more than its strengths. In a way, this book is the perfect microcosm of the tragedy of Greyhawk, in that it has several highlights which ultimately aren't enough to carry it to lasting glory. Shadow dragons and swordwraiths can't stand up to page after page of bookas, grungs, needlemen, and yet more giant versions of normal creatures: iguanas, turtles, crows, dragonflies, etc. It all just-
...wait, this is the product that gave us AD&D 2E stats for the grippli? Quite possibly the cutest little monster in all of D&D?
Oh my gosh, he's so adorable! Look at him with that tiny little sword and his "grr, I'm fierce!" expression! Even his name sounds like something Mister Rogers came up with!
Forget what I said before: MC5 is indispensible to your AD&D 2E game.
Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
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Orius
Legend
Ah yes, Greyhawk. I learned early this was allegedly the original D&D setting*. Unfortunately my introduction to the world was through a package of Rose Estes' execrable books that I came across at a local dollar store in 1995 which I picked up hoping to learn more about the setting. While I admit that in shame, it really doesn't have anything to do with MC5.
But as you said, there isn't a lot of difference between Greyhawk and D&D in feel, in fact there are those old timers who would absolutely insist that Greyhawk IS D&D and D&D is Greyhawk. This doesn't help that MC1 and MC2 already covered the most important core monsters, with MC3 having a good share of what was leftover. This one seems to cover some remaining scraps from MMII and a few entries from the FF (hello, flail snail), and tries to put in some stuff that's supposed to be Greyhawk specific, some of which I think originated in Greyhawk Adventures. At this point I think TSR was still mostly converting 1e monsters rather than covering new ground with the MCs.
I don't think it's bad, but it's another MC where most of the best stuff was included in either the MM or Annuals later in 2e. I don't think it's junk though, as the content is suitable for typical vanilla games.
TBH, it really takes a lot for me to consider a monster to be lame or stupid. I like to use a lot of different monsters to keep players on their toes and obscure stuff is fun because they're less familiar and less memorized by the players. So while Alzrius didn't think the spriggan was all that interesting, I always liked the idea of evil gnomes that can turn giant-sized, but I've never gotten around to using them. Many years ago, I responded to a topic by Monte Cook about some 3e monsters that basically had no traction for him; I actually thought they were interesting and used them in one of my own dungeons. There were a few monsters 3e introduced in the MM that I experimented with, and the most disappointing was probably the grick, which my players defeated with far less effort than I was expecting. Yet that monster had enough traction to make it to 5e's MM. Monster illustrations make a lot of difference too, going back to the spriggan, IIRC Tom Baxa did the art in MC5, while the MM illo, which I saw first, was by Tony DiTerlizzi who is by far a much better artist, and provided a better illustration.
So think it's mostly a matter of taste, and DMs are just naturally going to like different monsters. I don't mind the "meh" monsters too much, because maybe some other DM will be interested. And even then, I might use it layer anyway. A monster has to be really bad for me to dislike it.
*Yes, Blackmoor should be considered the first setting. The main thing with it is that it was a relatively small setting, and Gary kind of just dropped it into Greyhawk I think because all these early games were part of a larger world. It's better than how Mystara eventually treated it by dumping it into the distant past though. However, I feel Blackmoor should be its own thing rather than tacked onto either Greyhawk or Mystara.
But as you said, there isn't a lot of difference between Greyhawk and D&D in feel, in fact there are those old timers who would absolutely insist that Greyhawk IS D&D and D&D is Greyhawk. This doesn't help that MC1 and MC2 already covered the most important core monsters, with MC3 having a good share of what was leftover. This one seems to cover some remaining scraps from MMII and a few entries from the FF (hello, flail snail), and tries to put in some stuff that's supposed to be Greyhawk specific, some of which I think originated in Greyhawk Adventures. At this point I think TSR was still mostly converting 1e monsters rather than covering new ground with the MCs.
I don't think it's bad, but it's another MC where most of the best stuff was included in either the MM or Annuals later in 2e. I don't think it's junk though, as the content is suitable for typical vanilla games.
TBH, it really takes a lot for me to consider a monster to be lame or stupid. I like to use a lot of different monsters to keep players on their toes and obscure stuff is fun because they're less familiar and less memorized by the players. So while Alzrius didn't think the spriggan was all that interesting, I always liked the idea of evil gnomes that can turn giant-sized, but I've never gotten around to using them. Many years ago, I responded to a topic by Monte Cook about some 3e monsters that basically had no traction for him; I actually thought they were interesting and used them in one of my own dungeons. There were a few monsters 3e introduced in the MM that I experimented with, and the most disappointing was probably the grick, which my players defeated with far less effort than I was expecting. Yet that monster had enough traction to make it to 5e's MM. Monster illustrations make a lot of difference too, going back to the spriggan, IIRC Tom Baxa did the art in MC5, while the MM illo, which I saw first, was by Tony DiTerlizzi who is by far a much better artist, and provided a better illustration.
So think it's mostly a matter of taste, and DMs are just naturally going to like different monsters. I don't mind the "meh" monsters too much, because maybe some other DM will be interested. And even then, I might use it layer anyway. A monster has to be really bad for me to dislike it.
*Yes, Blackmoor should be considered the first setting. The main thing with it is that it was a relatively small setting, and Gary kind of just dropped it into Greyhawk I think because all these early games were part of a larger world. It's better than how Mystara eventually treated it by dumping it into the distant past though. However, I feel Blackmoor should be its own thing rather than tacked onto either Greyhawk or Mystara.
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Voadam
Legend
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Nuts. That's what I get for not personally sourcing the creature (which I blame on my Hemnes bookshelves; they have this slight overhang that effectively traps books that are on the top shelf. It's the one flaw in what's otherwise a great bit of furniture).
Voadam
Legend
Greyhawk was both core D&D and specific GH stuff.
The distinctive Greyhawk stuff included their gods: Tharizdun, St. Cuthbert, Iuz, etc.
Also specific demihumans as noted like the Grugach and Valley elves. It also introduced weird setting things like different names for common D&D demihumans and humanoids (jebli, etc.). It also had some odd human ethnicities with Flan, Oeridian, Suloise, etc.
The world was a mix of fantasy analogue tropes (arabic states, viking kingdoms, pirate islands), some fantasy tropes (an elven kingdom, a mage kingdom, humanoids of the Pomarj), and some setting specific things such as Greyhawk City (a fantasy D&D version of Chicago and Lankhmar, which was a fantasy novel version of New York), Evil mastermind behind the scene monk organization of the Scarlet Brotherhood, The Great Kingdom, etc.
I started with the 1e boxed set for the campaign setting which was fantastic and defined the setting well. I used it as my setting for a long term campaign until things went to Ravenloft in 2e and I think it is a great D&D setting on its own, a combination of both classic D&D stuff and some distinctive setting specific stuff.
For monsters it is tough to come up with iconic setting specific ones though. A lot of 1e MM, FF, and MM2 fit well but are also pretty world generic.
I agree the frog people do stand out here.
The distinctive Greyhawk stuff included their gods: Tharizdun, St. Cuthbert, Iuz, etc.
Also specific demihumans as noted like the Grugach and Valley elves. It also introduced weird setting things like different names for common D&D demihumans and humanoids (jebli, etc.). It also had some odd human ethnicities with Flan, Oeridian, Suloise, etc.
The world was a mix of fantasy analogue tropes (arabic states, viking kingdoms, pirate islands), some fantasy tropes (an elven kingdom, a mage kingdom, humanoids of the Pomarj), and some setting specific things such as Greyhawk City (a fantasy D&D version of Chicago and Lankhmar, which was a fantasy novel version of New York), Evil mastermind behind the scene monk organization of the Scarlet Brotherhood, The Great Kingdom, etc.
I started with the 1e boxed set for the campaign setting which was fantastic and defined the setting well. I used it as my setting for a long term campaign until things went to Ravenloft in 2e and I think it is a great D&D setting on its own, a combination of both classic D&D stuff and some distinctive setting specific stuff.
For monsters it is tough to come up with iconic setting specific ones though. A lot of 1e MM, FF, and MM2 fit well but are also pretty world generic.
I agree the frog people do stand out here.
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