Looking for a simpler PC Gen...

[soulcatcher]

I had a quick read, seems like you've put a lot of thought into this. Can't say I understand everything right now. I need to read some of the links (not that familiar with graph theory) and propably have a better understanding of the rest of the codebase. Not being a native english speaker doesn't help either. Are there other documents about the current architecture and such? e.g. What are Tokens? Are they the code representation of the LST tags?

Most of the general assumptions are inline with what I try to use myself on projects.

I'm looking for an easy intro to the project. Do you have a team that does Unit Tests (or other tests)? Seems like a good way to get started without getting in over my head. I'm familiar with unit testing under php using simpletest, should be similar to JUnit.

But maybe this conversation shouldn't be held in this thread. So show me the way...

You can subscribe to the developers list at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pcgen-devel

After you are set up there, we can get you sourceforge access and get you some more explanation of how things work.

I agree that this is now getting off topic of this thread enough that we should take it offline. But, I'll answer those questions real quick like:

Architecture Docs: No, the old code didn't really have any documentation, this is the first real attempt to really get a firm architecture in place. That being said, between myself and the others, we can probably explain a fair beit to you.

Tokens: Every LST command is it's own plugin. You can find them all in separate jar files in your plugins/lstplugins folder. Other tokens we use are jepplugins (for formulas), bonusplugins (for bonuses), outputplugins (for tokens used on export sheets like pdf), and systemlstplugins (tokens used for setup of the interface/game modes).

There are still some tokens trapped in the rest of the code, and we need to pluginize them, or deprecate them before we hit 5.12, so that we can know that all of the tokens we use can be permanently supportable. (for those listening here, this is partially so that we can permanently support old CMP lst files.)

Entry to the team/junits: Yes, we do junits, and are always happy to get more. our present coverage is I think in the 50-60% range. Junits are a great way to get started, but also helping to finish the above tokenization effort is a good place to start as well.

Welcome to the team

Devon

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I'm just curious - how much would you pay?

At the risk of setting myself up I'd say that it depends on the actual software. Yet all game software is $50 whether it's Solitaire, Call of Duty, or Civilization. At $50 I would not deem PRICE a serious consideration. At $60 it would start to bother me but I'd still pay it - all other considerations being equal. At $70+ price IS a consideration: will this REALLY be worth the cost to my D&D games or should I just buy Spore instead and then go out to dinner?

Right now I just don't have need of it however, so while I'm still interested in the possibilities, I'm not actually on a quest.

 

[Taurendil]

You can subscribe to the developers list at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pcgen-devel

After you are set up there, we can get you sourceforge access and get you some more explanation of how things work.

I agree that this is now getting off topic of this thread enough that we should take it offline. But, I'll answer those questions real quick like:

Architecture Docs: No, the old code didn't really have any documentation, this is the first real attempt to really get a firm architecture in place. That being said, between myself and the others, we can probably explain a fair beit to you.

Tokens: Every LST command is it's own plugin. You can find them all in separate jar files in your plugins/lstplugins folder. Other tokens we use are jepplugins (for formulas), bonusplugins (for bonuses), outputplugins (for tokens used on export sheets like pdf), and systemlstplugins (tokens used for setup of the interface/game modes).

There are still some tokens trapped in the rest of the code, and we need to pluginize them, or deprecate them before we hit 5.12, so that we can know that all of the tokens we use can be permanently supportable. (for those listening here, this is partially so that we can permanently support old CMP lst files.)

Entry to the team/junits: Yes, we do junits, and are always happy to get more. our present coverage is I think in the 50-60% range. Junits are a great way to get started, but also helping to finish the above tokenization effort is a good place to start as well.

Welcome to the team

Devon

Ok, I'll see you there. Looking forward to it.

 

[SJPadbury]

Ok, I've used PCGen for almost as long as I've been playing D&D 3.0/3.5, so about 5 years now.
Short version is, yes, there's a learning curve, but just about everyone I've played with (11 people over that time period) was able to learn fairly quickly how to do it, even when it wasn't the somewhat cleaned up version it is now. (And yes, that includes the versions where adding skill points were a 5-10 minute chore...)
And like the people up above said, it can handle just about any rule, to the point of insanity.
The rules? working from a base of what's already been written, using cut-n-paste and tweaking, I can make most feats in a couple minutes, and full classes in a "functional, but ugly" form in half an hour to an hour. (Most recent example, I did a Dragon Shaman for a friend. I asked him up front what Dragon Totem he was going to use, and coded it with that hard-wired. Took about 45 mintues. Went back later and spent the 3-4 hours to make a version that could make choices on the fly, but that was more knowing that someone would want another one later. And they did.)
Did I mention that I'm not a programmer?
Oh, and the people that complain about the slowness of the program and that loading too much stuff slows it down unbearably, I have a P4 1.5 laptop that I let PCGen have 384 Meg of Memory on. I _start_ with Core 3 and Complete 4 before I even start thinking about if I want to load anything else. XPH, DMG2, pretty much always get loaded anymore too, and 2-3 more on top of that don't seem to hurt.
If you just want the SRD, yeah it's probably not for you.
If you want to use the entire bookshelf that you've spent your hundreds of dollars on, and you can find something better, I'll certainly pay attention, but until then, I'm sticking with this one.

(And if I sound incoherant, you try making a sensible post with people having a football arguement in the background at work.

 

[schporto]

At the risk of setting myself up I'd say that it depends on the actual software. Yet all game software is $50 whether it's Solitaire, Call of Duty, or Civilization. At $50 I would not deem PRICE a serious consideration. At $60 it would start to bother me but I'd still pay it - all other considerations being equal. At $70+ price IS a consideration: will this REALLY be worth the cost to my D&D games or should I just buy Spore instead and then go out to dinner?

Right now I just don't have need of it however, so while I'm still interested in the possibilities, I'm not actually on a quest.

I wasn't setting you up, although it could seem that way.
I will say I disagree with comparing it to games (like call of duty etc). To me there's probably 2 better comparisons:
Microsoft Office costs ~$400 (standard version) - reason for comparison: well office let's you create documents, and doesn't wear out. I do know people who still use office 2000 (not 97 because those pcs have died for the most part).
World of Warcraft costs $20 + $15 per month - reason for comparison: new features added. Counterpoints - new version will require new purchase (at about $20 - $50 + $15/month), can't create an output to go play somewhere else.
To me PCGen is an expensive piece of software. Probably worth those two comparisons I think. Your price point may be different and I'm not arguing that. For comparison - I don't buy video games. Not how I choose to spend my money. To each their own.
If PCGen was a commercial endeavor I'd place it's pricepoint around $30 for the software with the SRD. Additional datasets would be based on a percentage of the book - maybe 10% of the cost of the book. Or $400 for a lifetime all data membership. Again - that's what I'd pay.
-cpd

 

[kingpaul]

To me PCGen is an expensive piece of software.

Yes and no. Its free to d/l. However, if you're talking about the time cost the coders take to improved the program and/or the time cost the data monkeys take to add new datasets and/or the time cost you (generic, not specific) take to add your own data, then yes, the time cost does indeed add up.

Of course, if you're referring to the CMP datasets that were available, that also adds up.

 

[Mercule]

Yes and no.

I think what he was saying is that PCGen has the infrastructure (probably not quite the right word) of an expensive piece of software. You can make some real comparisons between what PCGen does and what a $400 piece of software does.

Personally, I think that's an appropriate comparison. Since PCGen is free, though, we pay in ways other than money. We pay in time for bug fixes. We pay in compatibility issues when it up-versions. We pay in having to deal with Notepad to enter our own datasets. We pay in minor interface issues, too. We pay in occasionally having to actually contribute to the project (even if it's just an idea).

I think that the people griping about some of these things would do well to remember that. I'm sure that if we all chipped in and paid a $75k salary for four code monkeys and four data monkeys, PCGen would have no problem turning out a stellar product in, say, six months, with most of these issues addressed in some way. Add in a bit of overhead, and I bet you could lure the D&D license back from WotC. That ain't happening, though.

 

[iwarrior-poet]

I think what he was saying is that PCGen has the infrastructure (probably not quite the right word) of an expensive piece of software. You can make some real comparisons between what PCGen does and what a $400 piece of software does.

Personally, I think that's an appropriate comparison. Since PCGen is free, though, we pay in ways other than money. We pay in time for bug fixes. We pay in compatibility issues when it up-versions. We pay in having to deal with Notepad to enter our own datasets. We pay in minor interface issues, too. We pay in occasionally having to actually contribute to the project (even if it's just an idea).

I think that the people griping about some of these things would do well to remember that. I'm sure that if we all chipped in and paid a $75k salary for four code monkeys and four data monkeys, PCGen would have no problem turning out a stellar product in, say, six months, with most of these issues addressed in some way. Add in a bit of overhead, and I bet you could lure the D&D license back from WotC. That ain't happening, though.

Gotta wonder if that isn't what CMP tried to do---and that didn't work out too well...

 

[kingpaul]

Gotta wonder if that isn't what CMP tried to do---and that didn't work out too well...

Well, for one point, CMP's data monkeys were contractors, not employees. The only owner to work full-time for a time, TMK, was Lone Jedi. Both Mynex and Merton Monk kept their day jobs.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I wasn't setting you up, although it could seem that way.
I will say I disagree with comparing it to games (like call of duty etc). To me there's probably 2 better comparisons:
Microsoft Office costs ~$400 (standard version) - reason for comparison: well office let's you create documents, and doesn't wear out. I do know people who still use office 2000 (not 97 because those pcs have died for the most part).
World of Warcraft costs $20 + $15 per month - reason for comparison: new features added. Counterpoints - new version will require new purchase (at about $20 - $50 + $15/month), can't create an output to go play somewhere else.

Except that I think MS Office is gawdawfully overpriced just because it's MS and they can do that. And a game like WoW is something I pay for monthly because I use that software frequently day-in, day-out, whereas character generation is not something I need to do constantly. When I DO need to do it I may need to do a fair amount of it for NPC's, or a half-dozen new PC's for a new campaign - but ultimately that's pretty infrequent.

I also don't need gobs of UPDATES for it. I may be a bit of an exception, but I run quite close to Core Rules and don't need to keep feeding rules supplements with go-faster stripes to the players. With just the Core Rules and perhaps a few purchased supplementary bits and a minimal ability to customize a few magic items I'd likely use the software unchanged for the next 5 years.

If PCGen was a commercial endeavor I'd place it's pricepoint around $30 for the software with the SRD. Additional datasets would be based on a percentage of the book - maybe 10% of the cost of the book. Or $400 for a lifetime all data membership. Again - that's what I'd pay.

I'd buy that - except the lifetime membership thing. Nobody needs to have everything and have it for the rest of their lives. Except, perhaps rules designers who are trying to NOT conflict with existing rules, create confusion, or reinvent wheels. But then, NONE of them bother to do that, so again...