Looking for alternatives to official Epic rules

[WizarDru]

I'm not opposed to the ELH's rules for BAB and saving throws, and I'd definitely use them if the campaign were going to reach into significant epic levels, but that's not going to happen.

Yeah, you said that last year, too.

The cleric's player has asked me to come up with my own cool epic perq for him. I'm going to have fun with that. As for epic spellcasting, I'm not opposed to it (flaws and all) and the bad guys have been using it, but I doubt the PCs will want to dabble. If they do, we'll make it work.

My experiences with Epic-Level have been mostly non-evident. The party is now comprised of 23rd and 24th level characters. One of the characters is now caught in a web involving one of the bad guys trying to make him a deity, and his decision as to whether to pursue it or not. (long story)

Generally, I've followed the main epic progression, with a few changes. First, I generally ignore any Epic restrictions on some feats. They become on a purely 'does it suit the character, is it balanced, is it fun?' basis. These people frighten countries, for pity's sake. I'm glad BAB and saves don't progress as before, or they'd lose all meaning. The 23rd level paladin is dropping ancient dragons in two to three hits, sometimes. They took out the Lich Queen of the Githyanki (Dungeon #100) and her pet red dragon before they were all Epic, so I just learned to let things play out as they will.

Epic Spellcasting is, as mentioned, a COLOSSAL FAILURE. No sane PC would ever spend the skill points, time, gold and experience to acquire or research them. It's just not efficient, especially given how difficult they can be to cast. The only epic spells in the game are ones that were claimed as treasure, and these are cast only rarely. Most of the PCs were given a chance to retool their characters when the ELH came out (after we agreed to try epic progression), since some choices were penalized harshly (such as the cleric not buying up his Spellcraft, for example).

The Epic Monsters vary in efficacy, some being cool and some being overrated. White Slaad, for example, have lots of kewl powers, but they still end up as cannon fodder, for the most part. Creatures like the one who jumps back and forth in time are just annoying. Last adventure, my players downed a Shadow of the Void advanced to CR 29, with only half the party available.

Implement any of the suggestions concerning massive damage saves. Doing 50 points in a round is no longer hard, and character death will be much more frequent (and irritating, not necessarily dangerous) at these levels. Some epic monsters deal the hurt so fast that even buffed barbarians go down in the first round. I generally only allow the 'massive damage doesn't tick at 50' rule for epic characters or creatures.

There's lots of other stuff, too, if you want to hear me drone endlessly about this stuff.

 

[Nifft]

There's lots of other stuff, too, if you want to hear me drone endlessly about this stuff.

Yes, please!

-- N

 

[Campbell]

Yes, please!

-- N

I'd really appreciate your insights, Wizard Dru. Perhaps House Rules is not the apropriate forum for general discussion of epic level gaming though.

 

[drnuncheon]

Epic Spellcasting is, as mentioned, a COLOSSAL FAILURE. No sane PC would ever spend the skill points, time, gold and experience to acquire or research them.

The weird thing is that it seems to come up in Sepulchrave's game all the time. I wonder if he's altered the rules...

J

 

[Trainz]

I have been using the ELH extensively, and it works. It aint perfect, but it works. If you don't intend to buy it, you could use the epic rules in the 3.5 DM's guide, and the Epic SRD.

One thing though: the epic spells are very clunky, so I don't use them at all and instead came up with an house-rule alternative, which I cut n' paste here:

Epic Spellcasting Feat:

Same prereq's as the one from ELH, with different effect: It allows a caster to shape his spells a number of times per day equal to his ranks in the appropriate Knowledge feat divided by 10 (2 times per day for Knowledge Arcana 23). When this feat is taken, one shape is acquired. This feat can be taken multiple times in order to acquire new DIFFERENT shapes.

These shapes can be applied to a metamagicked spell. They do not increase the spell level.

Shapes:

TIME: The duration of the spell is increased by one factor:

1 round ==> 1 minute
1 minute ==> 10 minutes
10 minutes ==> 1 hour
1 hour ==> 1 day
1 round per level ==> 1 minute per level
1 minute per level ==> 10 minutes per level
10 minutes per level ==> 1 hour per level
1 hour per level ==> 1 day per level

A spell with a duration shorter than 1 round or longer than 1 hour per level cannot be shaped with TIME.

SPACE: The area of effect is multiplied by 10. A fireball would explode in a 200 ft radius spread.

LIFE: The amount of hit points cured by a spell (cure and heal spells only) is tripled. A mass heal by a 25th level cleric would cure 750 hit points. If this shape is applied to a raise dead or any resurrection spell, up to one creature per 4 divine caster levels can be brought back to life with a single casting of the spell (a 29th level cleric could resurrect 7 creatures).

ARCANE: The spell's saving throw DC is raised by 7, the caster gains a +7 on his roll to bypass spell resistance, and any dispel checks are made with a +7.

ENERGY: If a spell does damage to creatures by rolling some dice and are part of the Invocation/Evocation schools, the targets saving throws are automatically failed, their spell resistance is automatically bypassed, and any energy resistance or immunity they may have is suppressed for the casting of this single spell.

SHARING: A beneficial spell with a target of personal or creature touched may affect you and one willing creature per caster level within line of sight.

SPEED: You may cast another spell this round. It is not "Quickened", which means that sorcerors can apply metamagic feats to it, even if they already did with a previous spell this same round.

ENTHROPY: As you cast the spell, magical energies unleashed by the casting gives you temporary hit points equal to your caster level multiplied by 20. These hit points disappear at a rate of 10 per round, and are diminished by any attacks damaging you.

A spell can be modified by more than one shape, but each shape counts as a use.

I also came up with an epic system for traps that you might be interested in:

Traps Design (Epic, CR20+):

First, set trap CR, then consult following parameters. Note that epic poison traps are pointless because most epic characters aren’t bothered with poisons anymore.

Attack: CR+15, Damage CR+20/d6
Touch Attack: CR+5, Damage CR+15d6
Inescapable damage group: CR+5/d6
Inescapable damage single target: CR+10/d6
Savable Damage group: CRx2/d6, ST DC CR+15, Caster Level: Trap CR+5
Savable Damage single targetCRx2)+10/d6, ST DC CR+15, Caster Level: Trap CR+5
Lethal Spell effect: ST DC CR+15, Caster Level: Trap CR+5
Non-Lethal Spell effect: ST DC CR+20, Caster Level: Trap CR+5

Magical Trap Search/Disable DC: CR+25
Non-Magical Trap Search/Disable DC: CR+15

Both of these hous-rules have been playtested extensively IMC, and from my POV at least, they work and are balanced. The traps were especially fun.

I have one question... 12 years to get to level 21 ? ? ? I ONLY give XP's for monsters defeated, and my players went from level 1 to level 20 in 12 months time with a weekly game. How did you do that ?

 

[poilbrun]

I have one question... 12 years to get to level 21 ? ? ? I ONLY give XP's for monsters defeated, and my players went from level 1 to level 20 in 12 months time with a weekly game. How did you do that ?

I don't like to reply for other people, but I have had a similar experience: the campaign started as 2nd edition, and for those who remember, you gained levels a lot more slowly than in 3rd, and it only got worse at higher level... When we switched to 3rd edition, the DM decided to keep the advancement speed similar to what it was before, which means A LOT slower than what the monsters we defeat would award.

In 2e, there used to be story-based XP awards that helped a lot in the progression. In the 3e campaign I DM, I have stopped using those, as the monster XP is quite enough to make the characters level faster than I would have them. I have tried reducing the XP awards from fights, but then characters get too much equipment for their level, and when your characters have too much gear, it is difficult to actually balance an encounter. Anyway, at high-level, it becomes more and more difficult to find the middle ground between the stroll-in-the-park encounter and the TPK (total party kill, just in case!).

 

[drnuncheon]

I have tried reducing the XP awards from fights, but then characters get too much equipment for their level, and when your characters have too much gear, it is difficult to actually balance an encounter.

If you're going to reduce the XP awards, you pretty much have to reduce the treasure in the same proportion, otherwise you get this problem.

J

 

[Piratecat]

The PCs have about the right amount of equipment for their level -- maybe a bit more, because a lot of it is unusual and not always useful - but I've always reduced both xp so that the group rises a level about every 10-12 biweekly four hour sessions (roughly twice a year.) I use more story awards than monster awards, and not all encounters provide usable treasure.

Hey, here's an epic-y level question for people who have the Advanced Players Handbook. What's the cleric spell progression for levels 21-23? It isn't intuitive, because the pattern of the chart changes somewhat.

If anyone has any cool ideas for an epic-y class ability for a high lvl cleric (Velendo), I'd welcome suggestions. Emphasis should probably be on something stylish.

 

[Trainz]

The PCs have about the right amount of equipment for their level -- maybe a bit more, because a lot of it is unusual and not always useful - but I've always reduced both xp so that the group rises a level about every 10-12 biweekly four hour sessions (roughly twice a year.) I use more story awards than monster awards, and not all encounters provide usable treasure.

Yeah... by letting the PC's advance as per the rules, their characters quickly become high and thus sent to retirement. If they like their characters, this means less campaigns played with them. So from a certain POV, it doesn't help them at all.

In my current game, the players are in a setting where magic items are very hard to acquire, so they loaded up on creation feats (arms and armors, wands, scrolls, and wondrous). I allow the PC's to let the recipient of the item pay for the XP cost. Hopefully, this will somewhat slow down their overall progression, and allow them to enjoy their characters longer.

 

[WizarDru]

One thing though: the epic spells are very clunky, so I don't use them at all and instead came up with an house-rule alternative, which I cut n' paste here:

Oooh. Daddy Likes. I'll have to give this the once over. I like it. A LOT. The trap stuff, too.

I have one question... 12 years to get to level 21 ? ? ? I ONLY give XP's for monsters defeated, and my players went from level 1 to level 20 in 12 months time with a weekly game. How did you do that ?

In my game, we started fresh in 3e, and it took us 4 years of weekly games to get to our current group level of 23/24. It really depends on the playstyle. I've had sessions where no combat occured, and at Epic levels, sucessive combats are rare. The story is so involved now, that we might have a conversation with a deity and his host that takes a couple of hours, with no skill rolls or dice rolling of any kind.