D&D 4E Looking for thoughts on my kitbashed 4E

[Tony Vargas]

The way D&D traditionally handles this is very weird.

Trying to think of something this comment wouldn't apply to....

 

[Igwilly]

Trying to think of something this comment wouldn't apply to....

Hahahaha I won’t go that far.

First, contrary to popular believe, many things changed significantly between editions. It was just more subtle than changing the entire magic system, but it was significant nonetheless. In addition, in certain cases, things changed within the same edition. Therefore, some stuff doesn’t even have a “classical D&D way” to talk about.
Second, I won’t say to you I don’t find some “classical D&D” stuff to be weird. However, I do like other stuff in there. There is a good amount of stuff that, for me, isn’t weird; it’s just unique. In some cases, I rejected them at first, but started to like them after a while.
Of course, one cannot deny that 4e itself has a lot of classical content, despite all the affirmations of the opposite. It was heavily influenced by old D&D.
For me, I think all that’s left is to decide for myself which things I like and which things I don’t ^^

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I know that's all explained in the Silmarilion, but in the Hobbit and LotR, he, like, makes fireworks, 'knows hundreds of spells of opening' and provides tons of exposition - he's very knowledge-oriented.

Sure, though who knows what she might retcon in her answer to the Silmarillion. Seriously, though, the idea of innate power (or talent) is not incompatible with the idea of arcane knowledge as a source of power.

But my contention is that it isn't a source of power at all. Knowledge of how to plug a cord into the wall is not a source of electricity. The nuclear reactor down the road that supplies the power to the line that goes to the wall socket IS. Knowing how to tap into it and what to do with it may be vital, but the power still COMES from somewhere.

No, but they draw on the hermetic tradition which dates back at least that far. Crowley revealed secrets of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which purported to have a lineage of centuries, even though they were just a comparatively recent offshoot of the Rosicrucians. That was more the tail-end of people taking hermeticism seriously, though, it was much bigger in prior centuries - back, for the famous instance, when Newton was into it.

of course, our whole pop-culture perception of magic is infused with 19th & early 20th century weirdness. You don't need to have read Sinnett's 'The Occult World' to have been influenced by Theosophy, you just have to have watched Topper or, more recently, Ghost.

I think my comment above still applies, and I think (though I am not a huge expert on Hermetic magic) that it relies on the concept of accessing the power of various angels, devils, etc. Even when creating 'magic items' this seems to be the case. So hermetic spell-casting could be seen as more like Divine or Primal.

What most wizards did in fiction: either vanish into thin air, or fall back on the one magical trick they had that worked in a fight, or pick up a weapon - and generally only one of those per wizard.

For 5e I've seriously considered slotless casters - at-will 'cantrips' and ritual casting, only. It'd be closer to the depiction in genre and would hardly be underpowered.

The other part of the idea of the knowledge-wizard is that his specific occult knowledge could provide strategies or preparation to deal with specific threats, making it into more of a 'leader' role class...

Well, yes, all of these are possible. They don't all fit well with the 4e paradigm of class orthogonality and equality of roles in combat situations, obviously. HOWEVER, I'm not really opposed to a slightly modified paradigm where some characters 'do stuff' before-hand to get themselves set up, to bolster other PCs, etc. There's a number of ways that could work. It would, to some degree, modify class orthogonality, but if it can still slot into AEDU then I think its cool (well, plus the whole rituals stuff, that's fine too).

 

[Tony Vargas]

But my contention is that it isn't a source of power at all. Knowledge of how to plug a cord into the wall is not a source of electricity. The nuclear reactor down the road that supplies the power to the line that goes to the wall socket IS. Knowing how to tap into it and what to do with it may be vital, but the power still COMES from somewhere.

Magic doesn't have to work that way (though D&D magic certainly does). It can just be. You know a certain sequence of words and gestures conjures light from nothing. You can conjure light. It doesn't need to be for a reason, or because you're special, or from a place or conserve mass or energy or anything, it can just be ex nillo.
It also doesn't have to be knowledge - it could be intent, belief, or some of the things I just got done saying it didn't have to be, like 'because you're special' or 'for a reason.'

But to heck with the laws of thermodynamics, the cubed-squared-law, and other rational, scientific impediments, as far as magic is concerned.

I think my comment above still applies, and I think (though I am not a huge expert on Hermetic magic) that it relies on the concept of accessing the power of various angels, devils, etc.

Part of it is the idea of a proto-religion of which all other religions are incomplete realizations, and part of it is theurgy, yes, but it's all a set of secret knowledge, and the perception of hermeticism that informs the image of the wizard, like the word 'wizard,' itself, suggests special knowledge at the heart of it.

Well, yes, all of these are possible. They don't all fit well with the 4e paradigm of class orthogonality and equality of roles in combat situations, obviously. HOWEVER, I'm not really opposed to a slightly modified paradigm where some characters 'do stuff' before-hand to get themselves set up, to bolster other PCs, etc. There's a number of ways that could work. It would, to some degree, modify class orthogonality, but if it can still slot into AEDU then I think its cool (well, plus the whole rituals stuff, that's fine too).

I don't see any impediment to a less Vancian knowledge-oriented 'wizard' in AEDU, it's a flexible enough little structure. It'd probably lean heavily (and without controversy, because magic) on the kind of mechanics the Warlord tended to.

 

[Garthanos]

In some cases, I rejected them at first, but started to like them after a while.

For me that includes hit points and classes (that define roles) both of which I now find to be kind of awesome. Heck I want to add them to games without them

 

[Cyvris]

Chiming in as I've worked on a "similar" project recently and am currently playtesting it with my veteran 4e group.

My focus was mostly on cutting down powers/spells. My approach culled out a good 90% of all powers and then tossed them into a single power source sub header. Any character/class that uses the power source can select any powers from that source. Some have additional effects based off class (Arc Lightning for a Swordmage is also a pull, while Druids often turn powers into AoEs or have a debuff attached to them, Rangers/Rogues can use Twin Strike to hit the same target while Fighters have to target two different creatures) to help set things apart, keep "roles" in place, or to combine two powers that are mostly mechanically similar into one power. Some classes (Barbarian and Monk) also allow you to select powers/spells from an alternative power source in place of your others, usually the alternative pick coming from a list of Martial Exploits. I did not go in like you did and let each class fill multiple roles, instead my idea is more the power source is your "class" first, with the "class" dictating role, and your power choice either reinforcing that or letting you dip your toe into a second role.

Aracanist>Defender>Warmage

Martial>Defender>Fighter

Primal>Leader>Shaman

All the classes share a unified list of powers and could reasonably be called similar things (Druid or Fighter for everything in their power source) with specialization in role being what really sets them apart.

I also overhauled "utility" powers, cutting out most of the combat related ones, leaving things that have more out of combat use as the majority. Players also get 2 (3 for some classes) instead of one and anyone with the "Ritual Caster" feat can select from a much wider list that consists of most of 4e's rituals and some older edition stuff rewritten in "power" format.

As for classes, I eliminated a few (no Divine, mostly as I don't like them, Sorcerers killed Warlocks and took their Curse/Boon mechanic to make them mechanically distinct and interesting) and also removed most "class feats" from the game. These feats instead became class features, divided across three tiers, with players picking 2/2/1 in total. The idea here was a rather blatant lifting from WoW's current incarnation of talent trees and the intent is to make players heavily consider what they pick. Does the Warlord want to grant extra hp or allow any THP they grant to not expire after combat? Does the Swordmage prefer boosting their Warding or extra kicker's on their Aegis?

Most classes received at least some tweaking, mostly granting some roleplay features and EVERY Power Source now has the equivalent of Wizard Cantrips. Controller's also got a unifying class feature lifted from the Protector Druid's "Summon Difficult Terrain" ability. Druids kept that one, Wizards get the ability to summon a short wall, and Psions get a blast that pulls creatures in the AoE to a point/slows them.

Not sure how "legal" linking my work here would be as most of it is straight copy-paste of 4e material. Right now, I have completed powers up through level 5 dailies, along with class re-writes, the first tier of class features, feat tweaks, and a massive skill rework taken from Fantasy Flight Games narrative dice system all written up. If anyone is interested, shoot me a PM and I'll link the files.

Ultimately I would like to move towards something like you allude to with spells (Daily to Encounter/Spell Slots) and maybe something closer to Tome of Battle for Martial characters, but that's a long way off or would be an entirely "homebrew" edition I'd make.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Magic doesn't have to work that way (though D&D magic certainly does). It can just be. You know a certain sequence of words and gestures conjures light from nothing. You can conjure light. It doesn't need to be for a reason, or because you're special, or from a place or conserve mass or energy or anything, it can just be ex nillo.
It also doesn't have to be knowledge - it could be intent, belief, or some of the things I just got done saying it didn't have to be, like 'because you're special' or 'for a reason.'

Sure, but there ARE 'laws of dramatic storytelling' which dictate that things work in ways that are dramatic. 'For no reason at all' doesn't work well in that sort of sense. "I got my power because my family has an ancient hereditary pact with the Animal Lords" works pretty well. Obviously there's a LOT of possibilities and they vary depending on how you tell the story.

But to heck with the laws of thermodynamics, the cubed-squared-law, and other rational, scientific impediments, as far as magic is concerned.

I didn't ask for a set of laws of magico-physics. I just pointed out that humans, generally speaking, don't just inherently do magic. There's usually something behind it. Some magical power, some connection with some sort of cosmic force, etc. Again, dramatic needs.

I don't see any impediment to a less Vancian knowledge-oriented 'wizard' in AEDU, it's a flexible enough little structure. It'd probably lean heavily (and without controversy, because magic) on the kind of mechanics the Warlord tended to.

Well, we have plenty of 'non-Vancian' arcane classes in 4e, so yes it works. I'd say all, except the wizard and maybe the artificer, perhaps the bard to an extent, tap into some sort of power outside themselves. I always wondered why warlocks and sorcerers are arcane at all... Swordmages could be Martial (in the same way monks could be), and Bards could well be primal or something.

 

[Garthanos]

Swordmages could be Martial (in the same way monks could be), and Bards could well be primal or something.

Yeh I have considered the possibility that sword mages might be in that wierd assed end of every skill which bleeds into extremes that outsiders call magic.

And the classic Celtic Bard was definitely Primal (as much as the Druid/Sorcerors were)

Warlocks seem to be just a variant of Divine ...ie extra planar sources you bend to your will.


The power sources I kind of like --> Personal - Environmental - Extradimensional

 

[Igwilly]

Yeh I have considered the possibility that sword mages might be in that wierd assed end of every skill which bleeds into extremes that outsiders call magic.

I wouldn't do that. The swordmage fulfils the Magic Knight trope just fine.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I just pointed out that humans, generally speaking, don't just inherently do magic.

I guess it depends on the setting and belief systems. In Xanth humans inherently do magic - other creatures inherently are magic. Most of the 'magic spells' you'll find in classical sources are weird little rituals that today we'd call 'superstition,' but that anyone might do.

There's usually something behind it. Some magical power, some connection with some sort of cosmic force, etc. Again, dramatic needs.

Sure, but occult knowledge can get you those connections. They aren't incompatible ideas, and the thread of wizards being wise & knowledgeable goes way back and is pretty near the surface, to day (conflated with the wonder/power of science & technology no doubt).

Well, we have plenty of 'non-Vancian' arcane classes in 4e, so yes it works. I'd say all, except the wizard and maybe the artificer, perhaps the bard to an extent, tap into some sort of power outside themselves. I always wondered why warlocks and sorcerers are arcane at all....

I remember reading the explanation of the Arcane power source in 4e and feeling like it was a tad circular or meaningless. It prettymuch did boil down to arcane powers working because they were arcane - secret, hidden, complicated, etc...


...

As long as we're talking about sources and changing sources, I was more than a little dissapointed by the Primal Spirits angle. I was expecting primal power to come from the Primordials, which, with the Dawn War, would have given the Druids &c a more 'Old Religion' kind of feel.