D&D 4E Looking for thoughts on my kitbashed 4E

Igwilly

First Post
He's onto us!

Thing about the mystical energy field that permeates all living things is that everything that living things do affects it right back. It's not supernatural, it's the very definition of natural, just a very non-scientific, different-from-reality nature.

Honestly, at this point, I cannot tell you what is “natural” and what is “supernatural”. In the pre-scientific conception of the world, magic was an integral part of it, present at many places and events and such.

The earliest days it was just the Monk. 'Ki' came into it with Oriental(ist) Adventures, c1985: every one of the "like regular class, but better, because Asian" OA classes had a 'Ki' power.

Yeah, it's all mystical.... ;) But, really, any pre-scientific subject tended to get infused with mysticism and symbolism and religion. Westerners were just particularly credulous about all that when it came out of the Mysterious Far East... and the Theosophists got a hold of it.


So, yeah, ki being a sub-set or add-on to Martial makes perfect sense. It piggy-backing Primal (strongly tied to the 'Natural' world) doesn't exactly clash, either.

Again, only in the sense Primal is a sub-source to Divine and Elemental and Shadow are sub-sources to Arcane. Sure, it is, but it more than deserves its own classes.
What I’m trying to say here is that one should not discard these classes with the excuse of “they’re basic classes, but better”. They are a majorly unexplored ground to mine cool stuff, with or without oriental-themed classes (although it surely is an excellent opportunity for them).
In addition, I will be honest: I don’t buy that “Orientalism” thing. Don’t try to convince me. Samurai, Ninja, etc. are cool concepts already present at popular imagination, they’ve enough differences to make them separate from Knights and Spies/Assassins, and that’s all we need to create classes from.
I simply cannot understand the urge people feel to merge many different, unique, flavorful classes into one big, bland, flavorless vanilla class like the Fighter. The Fighter is already bland enough!

Sounds very similar in a broad way to the possible beliefs of the ancient Celts. The Romans identified them as worshiping gods, because that's what the Romans, did, they mapped every religion they found to their own pantheon, but as far as anyone can tell, they were darn near animists, putting said 'gods' in every hill, forest, stream, & well.

Sounds like it'd map seamlessly to the 4e Primal-Spirit version of Primal.
It was quite hard for me to find any concrete information about the beliefs of the Celts, as they left so little written work for us to study, but it’s quite possible. Concepts like the nature spirits or the life force really are multi-cultural. Asia just made them look cool for us, hehehehe ^^
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Honestly, at this point, I cannot tell you what is “natural” and what is “supernatural”. In the pre-scientific conception of the world, magic was an integral part of it, present at many places and events and such.
It's fairly straightforward, is a feat the same in kind as an ordinary feat? It's natural. For instance, you can break a rock with a hammer, or jump up onto a table. So jumping-over/breaking-through a castle wall? Not supernatural. Superhuman, sure, but not supernatural. 'Dematerializing' and walking through a castle wall, OTOH? Supernatural. Levetating a match stick, supernatural, though hardly on a super-human scale, anyone can lift a matchstick. ;)

Again, only in the sense Primal is a sub-source to Divine and Elemental and Shadow are sub-sources to Arcane. Sure, it is, but it more than deserves its own classes.
Elemental didn't get any classes, it got a bunch of Themes and some feats. Ki could work beautifully that way, I think.



I simply cannot understand the urge people feel to merge many different, unique, flavorful classes into one big, bland, flavorless vanilla class like the Fighter. The Fighter is already bland enough!
Perhaps un-intuitively, it opens up more opportunity for many different, flavorful, unique /characters/.

If every variation on a mounted-warrior demands it's own class, then if the game has the Cavalier, you can't play a Samurai, a Mongol, a Rider of Rohan or anything else that sits on a mount in combat without getting a new class made. In turn, that bloats the game, fuels power creep, and locks down cool stuff to define one of those excess classes into something like uniqueness, thus depriving other, similar concepts of that cool stuff.

It's prettymuch the way D&D has always done it, and prettymuch the worst way to do it.

(Yeah, I know, "tell us how you really feel...") ;)

It was quite hard for me to find any concrete information about the beliefs of the Celts, as they left so little written work for us to study, but it’s quite possible. Concepts like the nature spirits or the life force really are multi-cultural. Asia just made them look cool for us, hehehehe ^^
Yep, there's vanishingly little solid history on the Celts. I was into Celtic Mythology back in the early 80s (yeah, before it was cool! it was briefly cool... no really, it was ....). There's what the Romans wrote from their very biased perspective, there's legends medieval monks wrote down from there's, there's archaeological evidence, and there's the Druid revivalists of the 18th & 19th centuries, and neo-Paganism.

But, what there is does point at something between animism and polytheism. FWIW. I'd never noticed the parallel with Shinto before, that's kinda cool....
 
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Igwilly

First Post
It's fairly straightforward, is a feat the same in kind as an ordinary feat? It's natural. For instance, you can break a rock with a hammer, or jump up onto a table. So jumping over breaking through a castle wall? Not supernatural. Superhuman, sure, but not supernatural.

Elemental didn't get any classes, it got a bunch of Themes and some feats. Ki could work beautifully that way, I think.

Oh, guy, I just don’t want to go into post-Essential territory. The edition’s goals changed excessively to consider both states truly as one solid edition. I take everything after Essentials with serious caution.
Ok, jumping over/breaking through a castle wall is not supernatural, sure, I agree on that. However, creating flames in your hands or into your swords? That surely is supernatural, and Swordsages already did that back at 3.5, supposedly using Ki.

Perhaps un-intuitively, it opens up more opportunity for many different, flavorful, unique /characters/.

If every variation on a mounted-warrior demands it's own class, then if the game has the Cavalier, you can't play a Samurai, a Mongol, a Rider of Rohan or anything else that sits on a mount in combat without getting a new class made. In turn, that bloats the game, fuels power creep, and locks down cool stuff to define one of those excess classes into something like uniqueness, thus depriving other, similar concepts of that cool stuff.

It's prettymuch the way D&D has always done it, and prettymuch the worst way to do it.

(Yeah, I know, "tell us how you really feel...") ;)

Oh, now I get where people are worried.
Surely, one can fear not having much freedom inside each class. In addition, imbalance is something serious that should be approached with caution. However, unintentionally, people make that one big strawman.
The thing is, Mongols, or Riders of Rohan, or whatever, don’t have enough “traction” at popular imagination to be their own classes. The vast majority of people don’t relate these concepts as anything other than they are in the real world. However, that’s not the case with Samurai. Popular imagination already made Samurai a very different concept – that, by the way, has nothing to do with mounts – from Knight; to the point that some/many people want a class devoted just for it. With Mongols? Not yet. Once they get 1000+ animes and TV shows just for them, we can talk.

Now, power creep? That’s something to watch out. I think imbalance has more to do with flux than with quantity, if you know what I mean. Honestly, I don’t know what difference in “bloat” and “power creep” would exist between creating a separate class, and creating just another sub-class. The lesson here is creating things carefully, watching out for balance issues.

Again, I get what people are worried. I know people don’t want broken stuff and one should actually test and refine any class it creates to the game. I just don’t think this means, “do not create more classes”. It just means designer’s job gets harder with time – did you think designing an RPG was an easy task?

Yep, there's vanishingly little solid history on the Celts. I was into Celtic Mythology back in the early 80s (yeah, before it was cool! it was briefly cool... no really, it was ....). There's what the Romans wrote from their very biased perspective, there's legends medieval monks wrote down from there's, there's archaeological evidence, and there's the Druid revivalists of the 18th & 19th centuries, and neo-Paganism.

But, what there is does point at something between animism and polytheism. FWIW. I'd never noticed the parallel with Shinto before, that's kinda cool....

Ok, that’s cool information. Thank you for sharing it :D
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I basically created powers that are similar to the Wizard cantrips for the other powers sources. Controllers get four, while everyone else gets three.

Examples from the Martial list.

Always Equipped
You’ve taken the adventure’s motto of “Be Prepared” to heart, you always carry with you at least something that will be useful.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Knack
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You dig in your bag, producing one of the following items: bell, climbing pitons (10), glass bottle, chalk, grappling hook, hooded lantern, magnifying glass, manacles, marbles (bag of 20), mirror, rope (10ft), shovel, soap, tinderbox, whistle.
Special: Nothing you remove from your pack using this Knack can be sold or traded.

Bullwhip
You carry a whip with you at all times and have practiced extensively in its use.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Knack
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You have studied extensively with a whip and can perform the following feats or martial prowess with it as long as you are not engaged in combat.ers
*Pull an item up to your normal weight limit three squares closer to you.
*Snap the whip around a suitable point, allowing you to swing over a gap five squares or less without making an Athletics check, resist being pushed or pulled by natural forces, or to hang down from a point above you.
*Target one creature and pull an item out of their hand.

Yeh I am compiling a Martial Power III and including martial controllers so this kind of thing might be right on target...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Heck I have heard some arguments made that the Norse magic was all psionic/psychic in flavor... the ravens of Odin were basically two aspects of telepathy etc.
 

Intriguing.


I think all of classes are diffirent flavors on existing classes (hence themes seem a perfect fit)

Ki is more related to durability and health, the characters with superhuman levels of it in anime and such are all basically super human constitution character for potency and wisdom is the control angle.

Abilities expending or interacting with Healing surges might be another way of looking at KI. They also seem to be grand master traing style abilities not necessarily powers... although I am picturing a Conlock reflavored.

Here's another way to look at 'Ki', it is basically your level. Its the 'juice' you get by advancing in level. Thus there isn't really a 'power source' of 'Ki', instead your Ki can advance in any power source, it just depends on which one(s) you use. In terms of its 'Asian flavor' that's something you just have to provide, but TBH 4e does crazy Kung Fu/Wire Fu etc. pretty darn well already. You can always play it up some and certainly some builds are most amenable to doing that. This is a lot of why I thought the 4e OA themes were a good solid design. They just give you a bit of fluff and some nicely flavored powers you can pick if you need a bit more help with that end of things.
 

Honestly, I feel like I’m talking to the walls here, but...

“Qi” isn’t just a fancy oriental name for RPG “mana” or stuff like that. Qi (or Ki) has a much deeper meaning, which actually relates to D&D since its earliest days.
We aren’t talking about your regular Arcane Magic – which is the power you get from cosmic cheat codes – and neither Divine Magic – when someone else does the cheat codes for you. Ki is its own thing. Quite hard to understand and even more difficult to explain.
In my vision, this energy (not using scientifically accurate terms, here) permeates the existence. It’s in the land; it emanates from the bonfire you just lit; the clouds and winds are the Ki or Earth itself. It certainly plays its role in the creation and maintenance of the world. However, it can best be felt at its peak: Qi is the source of life. The so-called “vital force” that keeps all mortals alive and breathing.
The concept of “life force” is a quite important one, even for Western thought. It was once a legitimate scientific concept (until certain experiments were made), but it persisted in our imagination. If you think about the old-school, AD&D concept of Necromancy, you’ll find out that Necromancy is the manipulation of the life force by magic. This is my favorite definition of Necromancy, and vital to the way I imagine stuff. I was shocked when I realized that Necromancy might be just manipulating Ki in and out of creatures, using two “poles” to change that force: Life (Positive Energy) and Death (Negative Energy).
I won’t go so far as making Ki = Oriental classes. A good example of a ki-using, non-Asian class is the well-famed Swordsage (3.5 Tome of Battle). Many of its maneuvers are clearly supernatural, and they invoke Ki as their explanation. The Crusader could do some interesting stuff, and could be assigned some sort of “Divine Ki”.
In addition, there’s another oriental concept that is just as intriguing as Qi: the Kami, from Japan. Contrary to popular belief, Qi is a Chinese concept; it didn’t originate from Japan. “Kami” is the main belief of Shinto, which can be described as a mid-way point between animistic spirits and polytheist gods. Honestly, instead of throwing the Samurai and Ninja into Qi, we may as well link them to the Kami. Of course, that doesn’t stop us from linking the Kami to Qi! (Which is something I already started doing).

Anyway, my main point is: the concept of Qi itself is quite unexplored and can lead into a power source of its own, with or without Asian-themed classes. However, both Qi and Kami are big concepts about how a given fantasy world functions, but I think that’s fine. I see classes mainly as tools to create my world instead of obligatory character rules for every single world in a given system/edition. Use just what you like and ignore the rest, that’s the golden rule to create a setting, right?

Yeah, kinda. I mean I don't exactly disagree with you or anything like that. Qi is a very loose concept though. Its tangled up with spirits (Kami in Japanese), Yin and Yang, etc. Yes, the Kami of Japan INCLUDE what we in the West have interpreted as 'gods'. Shinto is an animist religion, EVERYTHING has a spirit, which IMHO is basically what Primal power is supposed to be. Given that, then you can see Qi as a sort of 'spirit energy', and of course even people have this energy, and people can manipulate it, both their own and that of other beings, things, places, etc.

The point I'm making is that I don't see this as being really distinct from other power sources. If you started off from a Japanese/Chinese perspective on 'magic' then you'd probably parse things differently than 4e does. Actually in a sense this is what I did, in HoML there isn't a Divine and Primal power sources, there's Spirit, and there's also Life, which would probably map a lot more closely to your concept than 4e's sources do (though I will be honest and say I hadn't particularly done so because of thinking about East Asian themed fantasy, but I will be happy if it works well for that too!) :)
 

It's fairly straightforward, is a feat the same in kind as an ordinary feat? It's natural. For instance, you can break a rock with a hammer, or jump up onto a table. So jumping over breaking through a castle wall? Not supernatural. Superhuman, sure, but not supernatural.

Elemental didn't get any classes, it got a bunch of Themes and some feats. Ki could work beautifully that way, I think.



Perhaps un-intuitively, it opens up more opportunity for many different, flavorful, unique /characters/.

If every variation on a mounted-warrior demands it's own class, then if the game has the Cavalier, you can't play a Samurai, a Mongol, a Rider of Rohan or anything else that sits on a mount in combat without getting a new class made. In turn, that bloats the game, fuels power creep, and locks down cool stuff to define one of those excess classes into something like uniqueness, thus depriving other, similar concepts of that cool stuff.

It's prettymuch the way D&D has always done it, and prettymuch the worst way to do it.

(Yeah, I know, "tell us how you really feel...") ;)
Which is why in HoML I made 'weak classes', each one has 3 class boons, and the player can pick a total of 3 starting boons (including ones for race, background, etc). After that boons are pretty much open. They have an 'association', which indicates basically something like "yeah, this is a druidy kind of thing" but I eschewed any RULE that forbids it being granted to any old character (and all class boons are level 1 boons). I AM going to give each class a 'feature' as well, which is intended to reinforce their role, so classes DO have a bit of uniqueness, but its a fairly small bit, so you can easily either reuse them and just not use many of their boons (so spin a build that is based on Ranger but has no real 'outdoorsman' to it) or simply go in and pick up boons of a different class (probably one in your source is best) to grab most of its goodies.

Yep, there's vanishingly little solid history on the Celts. I was into Celtic Mythology back in the early 80s (yeah, before it was cool! it was briefly cool... no really, it was ....). There's what the Romans wrote from their very biased perspective, there's legends medieval monks wrote down from there's, there's archaeological evidence, and there's the Druid revivalists of the 18th & 19th centuries, and neo-Paganism.

But, what there is does point at something between animism and polytheism. FWIW. I'd never noticed the parallel with Shinto before, that's kinda cool....

Well, the revivalists/neo-pagans basically know NOTHING, at least beyond what anyone else knows. They've invented a lot, and then later generations of neo-pagans just ASSUME that what their predecessors were telling them was somehow authentic. So now there's a huge wad of firmly-believed-in but utterly made up 'Celtic' mythology (same for Norse, etc. to a lesser degree).

The medieval monks MAY have known slightly more, but unless they were drawing from older and now lost sources, they probably didn't. After all, the vast majority of that material dates to at least the 11th Century, almost 800 years after these practices officially stopped. Perhaps there were still enough peasants passing down lore to make something of, but by that time it would have been pretty corrupt, at best.

The vast majority of what we know comes from archaeology and it is quite hard to interpret. There are many statues, ruined Romano-Celtic temples, etc. We have little idea what went on in them, mostly fragmentary and often mysterious inscriptions, and just the barest smattering of relict lore. What the Romans wrote is hardly very illuminating either. There's not much of it, its fragmentary as well, and smacks of rumor and innuendo even when we can read it.

The TRUTH is we don't even have any idea what a 'druid' was, whether it was a title, an office, or something else. Its arguable that no such thing as druids ever actually existed!

It is commonly understood in the study of religion that most belief systems start out as a sort of universal animism. It seems to mainly involve ancestor spirits, but also spirits of the land, usually has some sort of 'otherworld' aspect to it (consider Australian Aboriginal belief systems). Over time, as social power structures evolve during the shift to permanent settlements, the spirits evolve into an analogous hierarchy. In the West at least this progressed to the classical stage of a pantheistic religion, generally overlaying an earlier intermediate phase (consider the Greek Chthonic cults and the replacement of the worship of the Titans by the Olympian Gods). In Japan, for whatever reason, Shinto only shifted to a partially pantheistic mode. It kept its concepts of the spirits of the world largely intact. Truthfully, had Greek and Roman classical religion survived, it might have looked pretty much like this too in practice. All we really have are the large monumental temples, there were certainly lares and other 'local deities' in daily practice. Chinese religion evolved a bit further, but its also a weird case, being mixed with at least 3 other religious traditions. It is a bit hard to say what comes from what there.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Well, the revivalists/neo-pagans basically know NOTHING
Yep. And they were clearly influenced by contemporary mysticism - in the 20th century, obviously, by Crowley, for instance. OTOH, what they believe is a set of legitimate religions, and an example of RL perception of magick.

The medieval monks MAY have known slightly more, but unless they were drawing from older and now lost sources, they probably didn't
The idea was that they were writing down local oral traditions - through their own lens, of course....
The TRUTH is we don't even have any idea what a 'druid' was, whether it was a title, an office, or something else. Its arguable that no such thing as druids ever actually existed!
It's even possible the Romans made the word up, themselves, yes.

But, inaccurate as it may be, there's a lot of inspiration to be had...
It is commonly understood in the study of religion that most belief systems start out as a sort of universal animism.. Over time, as social power structures evolve during the shift to permanent settlements, the spirits evolve into an analogous hierarchy. In Japan, for whatever reason, Shinto only shifted to a partially pantheistic mode. It kept its concepts of the spirits of the world largely intact.
Interesting.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Perhaps un-intuitively, it opens up more opportunity for many different, flavorful, unique /characters/.

If every variation on a mounted-warrior demands it's own class, then if the game has the Cavalier, you can't play a Samurai, a Mongol, a Rider of Rohan or anything else that sits on a mount in combat without getting a new class made. In turn, that bloats the game, fuels power creep, and locks down cool stuff to define one of those excess classes into something like uniqueness, thus depriving other, similar concepts of that cool stuff.

It's prettymuch the way D&D has always done it, and prettymuch the worst way to do it.

It goes beyond that focused lockdown of those other similar concepts it also seems to locks down variations within the concept. I have literally dozens of ways to build and explore a Samurai like concept Do I really need a samurai warlord class... a samurai Musachi class... a realistic Samurai horseman class, a Mystical swordsman samurai class... etc etc etc etc. Bah.
 

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