Loot Split

[S'mon]

The only DM involvement needed in treasure splitting is calling for initiative rolls when combat breaks out. Only by player deaths at each other 's hands will the players understand the importance of making agreements about treasure division before going on adventures together.

Heh. I agree in principle, it shouldn't be the DM's business. However I do see a problem with the recent tendency to "let's give everything to the nominated Party Treasurer" approach - rather than fight for loot, the players all passively let a single PC accumulate all the loot, with the theoretical justification that it will be distributed fairly later.

IME, this NEVER* happens. The only time I saw the treasurer system work was the one time I was a player and the group made me treasurer for a bit, I used the money to min-max item purchases and made sure everyone got +1 stuff ASAP. This soon stopped as the other players reckoned that a Rogue PC should not be Treasurer, so they gave the role to the Cleric.

What NORMALLY happens IME is that the Treasurer is a black hole - loot (money & magic) goes in, it doesn't come out. Either players have an amazing ability to pick the worst person as Treasurer, or most people are like this. You end up with massively under-resourced parties who struggle to survive.
A lesser but related problem is when the lone Treasurer PC is killed, the body & all the loot are lost.

My GM solutions:
(1) Use Inherent Bonuses in 4e.
(2) NPCs give specific amounts of money to specific PCs - "They give you 1000gp each", NOT "They give the party 5000gp"
(3) NPCs give specific magic items to specific PCs, NOT to the party.

*Actually, I think my friend James sometimes redistributes. Normally though IME the Treasurer role is given to the strongest-personality female player in the group. And she never gives stuff out again. I've seen this several times now, with different treasurers.

 

[fenriswolf456]

Heh. I agree in principle, it shouldn't be the DM's business.

I believe the OP is a player in this particular case, so the point is moot. Though the DM does have a big say in things, since its the DM that decides what the loot is in the first place.

However I do see a problem with the recent tendency to "let's give everything to the nominated Party Treasurer" approach - rather than fight for loot, the players all passively let a single PC accumulate all the loot, with the theoretical justification that it will be distributed fairly later.

IME, this NEVER* happens. The only time I saw the treasurer system work was the one time I was a player and the group made me treasurer for a bit, I used the money to min-max item purchases and made sure everyone got +1 stuff ASAP. This soon stopped as the other players reckoned that a Rogue PC should not be Treasurer, so they gave the role to the Cleric.

What NORMALLY happens IME is that the Treasurer is a black hole - loot (money & magic) goes in, it doesn't come out. Either players have an amazing ability to pick the worst person as Treasurer, or most people are like this. You end up with massively under-resourced parties who struggle to survive.
A lesser but related problem is when the lone Treasurer PC is killed, the body & all the loot are lost.

Well, it is the _party_ treasury, so why isn't the party making use of it? It shouldn't be a case of one person gets all the coin and then they alone decide and buy stuff for everyone. If you see a need for items, speak up and say something. I'm sure if you say "hey, the mage needs some better robes", you'll at least get the mage's interest and support. Why aren't you pressuring the Cleric to do what you did?

But yes, a treasury isn't the only way to go. You could certainly split the loot up evenly amongst the players and they have to make their own purchases, even going the path of the OP and spending part of their share to purchase a magic item in the loot. I've just been saying how and why I prefer not to have to buy items from the party.

I usually play with an equal share system, with the money being split up evenly, but with items going to those who need/can make best use of. But I have played with treasuries too, and it seems fine for our group.

Hopefully if the treasurer dies and the body and all items totally disappear, that you'll mourn a bit for your lost friend, as well as for all the loot on them.

My GM solutions:
(1) Use Inherent Bonuses in 4e.
(2) NPCs give specific amounts of money to specific PCs - "They give you 1000gp each", NOT "They give the party 5000gp"
(3) NPCs give specific magic items to specific PCs, NOT to the party.

*Actually, I think my friend James sometimes redistributes. Normally though IME the Treasurer role is given to the strongest-personality female player in the group. And she never gives stuff out again. I've seen this several times now, with different treasurers.

Dislike solution 3. It could work if RPed well, but it's definitely something that depends on the group. A pickup group could see this as favourtism. Plus you're going against your "the DM shouldn't be involved". These solutions take treasure distribution directly out of the hands of the players.

Why isn't stuff being given out? Is anybody asking for things and being flat out refused? Why does the party allow this?

My group is making pretty good use out of the treasury. Buying rituals and potions, paying for information gathering and rooms, getting mundane supplies. No one has died yet, but we have our reserve for Raise Dead too.

 

[S'mon]

Dislike solution 3. It could work if RPed well, but it's definitely something that depends on the group. A pickup group could see this as favourtism. Plus you're going against your "the DM shouldn't be involved". These solutions take treasure distribution directly out of the hands of the players.

Why isn't stuff being given out? Is anybody asking for things and being flat out refused? Why does the party allow this?

My group is making pretty good use out of the treasury. Buying rituals and potions, paying for information gathering and rooms, getting mundane supplies. No one has died yet, but we have our reserve for Raise Dead too.

On solution #3 - most commonly each PC is given an item of equivalent value at the same time, think the equipping of the Fellowship at Rivendell. NPCs may favour the most proactive PC for in-game reasons, depending on the campaign - in one campaign the only proactive PC was gifted the artifact armour, he had driven back the orc hordes and was regarded as a great hero. In another campaign all the PCs have been equipped similarly.

As DM I'm not involved in loot distribution at metagame level. My NPCs certainly are involved, though!

>>Why isn't stuff being given out? Is anybody asking for things and being flat out refused?<<

No - IME nobody tracks loot, they see that as the treasurer's job. They don't ask for stuff from the treasurer.

The weirdest one was in a campaign where level 1 PCs found an old pay chest of 6,000gp. They proceeded to hide it, apparently forgot about it, and it was never seen again! Even if they had eventually gone back to it 5 levels later it would no longer have been a big deal, whereas at level 1 they could have got a lot of use out of it.

As I said, the ONLY solution I've found is to have NPCs distribute equal amounts of money and/or magic to each PC individually. Players rarely pool these individual gifts, whereas any lump sum just goes 'to the treasurer' and effectively vanishes.

 

[fenriswolf456]

As I said, the ONLY solution I've found is to have NPCs distribute equal amounts of money and/or magic to each PC individually. Players rarely pool these individual gifts, whereas any lump sum just goes 'to the treasurer' and effectively vanishes.

I'd be inclined to just let it vanish then. If the PCs have no interest in using the gold, it's their choice. I suppose it could be a matter of 'out of sight, out of mind', but sounds more like gold just isn't a big deal for them.

Or, could make money more 'in their face', and make them fork over the gold for the stuff they buy, the rooms they rent, to pay the ferryman to take them across the river, to bribe that guard. Ask from where and who is paying the money.

Though I guess I'm still old-school. While the 'gifts to the fellowship' idea works now and again, I do still like actually finding magic items, or even better, having enemies using the item(s) that the party will then find. I'll let the party decide how they want to split things, though I'll likely give out individual shares of quest rewards.

 

[S'mon]

I'd be inclined to just let it vanish then. If the PCs have no interest in using the gold, it's their choice. .

I do 'just let it vanish', but then I also do hear complaints from players about how their PCs are poor and under-equipped, and that can get frustrating. Eg as GM:

1. I use DMG 2 Inherent bonuses
2. I also use standard treasure awards by level from the published adventures.
3. I have NPCs give a lot of gifts, in addition.

So in theory the PCs should have much *more* than standard wealth, not less! Yet it never works out like that. Players complain* their PCs are poor, yet they go on passively handing over all the loot to the treasurers.

Likewise, when I've been a player and tried to counter this black-hole effect by suggesting that we loot-split immediately, I get treated as selfish & anti-social, especially by the treasurer. I find it really strange and disconcerting.

*Heck, I even heard a treasurer complain of poverty, recently! I can only think he can't have actually been tracking the loot. Maybe the fresh PC sheet he brings to each session might have something to do with it. Just as he doesn't know how many healing surges he has left, he may not know what loot they've gained.

 

[fenriswolf456]

I do 'just let it vanish', but then I also do hear complaints from players about how their PCs are poor and under-equipped, and that can get frustrating.

So in theory the PCs should have much *more* than standard wealth, not less! Yet it never works out like that. Players complain* their PCs are poor, yet they go on passively handing over all the loot to the treasurers.

Likewise, when I've been a player and tried to counter this black-hole effect by suggesting that we loot-split immediately, I get treated as selfish & anti-social, especially by the treasurer. I find it really strange and disconcerting.

*Heck, I even heard a treasurer complain of poverty, recently! I can only think he can't have actually been tracking the loot. Maybe the fresh PC sheet he brings to each session might have something to do with it. Just as he doesn't know how many healing surges he has left, he may not know what loot they've gained.

I can imagine it being frustrating, but then maybe shift the focus:

GM: At a rough estimate, you've gotten XXXX so far in your adventures. So how much is actually in that treasury, Madame/Mister Treasurer?

Treasurer: *shrugs* I don't know, I don't have anything marked down.

GM: So, it seems your treasurer says that there's no gold in the party treasury, which seems rather suspicious to the rest of you, as you are dead certain there should be at least XXXX/2 in there ... say, is that a new cloak Treasurer is wearing?


I'm not sure, I've never really come across this. If there was a treasury involved, I would usually take control of it, and some of my friends were even thankful for it so that they didn't have to deal with it. I find it really odd that they don't let you do the job.

To be honest, from the way they're presented here, your fellow players seem lazy and a bit childish. To not make an effort to keep track of things, and then stamp their feet when they don't know how much they have, almost sounds like they're not really into playing the game. I'd be really clear with them up front. It's not your job as DM to keep track of their gold; you have enough to keep track of as it is. If it's not marked somewhere on someone's sheet, then it's lost (hole in the bag, theft in the streets, forgot the money bag back in the last inn, whatever). If they manage to find the noted amounts later on, well, who hasn't found something that was right in front of them the whole time? ("But I checked my backpack three times! I don't know how I could have missed the bag of coins").

The only suggestion I have that as a player, you do the treasurer job anyway. Nothing says that you can't also keep track of party gold. Then if someone complains, you an at least say "Actually, we have XXXX gold in the treasury, talk to Treasurer". If they're still unappreciative, shrug and let them suffer, and only speak up for when you want to get something.

 

[S'mon]

To be honest, from the way they're presented here, your fellow players seem lazy and a bit childish.

It hasn't come up yet in the game I'm currently playing - in the last 4e game I played the other PCs didn't trust my Thief to have the loot, thinking they could trust the LG Cleric. I'll try to avert the dynamic in my current game.

In the games I DM, I don't think the players are being childish, no. The grumbling is very muted. Lazy? Maybe, but these are busy adults often tired after work, and I suspect often all their brain cell energy goes on those complicated & lengthy 4e battles, with nothing left for the surrounding stuff, such as loot. I know I've felt that way as a player - by the time the 2-hour battle ends, I've got nothing left for searching the place.

 

[Grimmjow]

What I make my players do is split gold equally. When it comes to a magic item I saw "you find a magic weapon +1" than the group talks about who needs it the most who wants it things like that. Whoever ends up wanting it rolls a d20 for it, the winner not being able to roll next time.