Looting and the State
- Thread starter Jürgen Hubert
- Start date
Draxo
First Post
My thoughts:
I feel that adventuring is both rare and something fairly special. Its not something in a scale enough to attract that much interest.
There are very few governments, this is a medieval-esque world headed by Kings and emporors. These kings have other concerns other than rumors of an adventuring party halfway across his kingdom. Would these rumors even reach his ears unless they did something spectacular? I dont think so. If they did do something spectacular like.. i dunno, defeat an evil wizard that was threatening his kingdom, i dont think his first thought would be 'omg did they get any phat lewts? i should get some o that!'
Also, most of this thread seems to be from the opinion of a modern day thinker that lives in taxes left right and centre. medieval societies are different from that. They have taxes but they're not so.. complex and not on everything they do. You need to get out of that mindset.
lastly: Its a game. I say leave real life worries out of it. You'll be better off.
I feel that adventuring is both rare and something fairly special. Its not something in a scale enough to attract that much interest.
There are very few governments, this is a medieval-esque world headed by Kings and emporors. These kings have other concerns other than rumors of an adventuring party halfway across his kingdom. Would these rumors even reach his ears unless they did something spectacular? I dont think so. If they did do something spectacular like.. i dunno, defeat an evil wizard that was threatening his kingdom, i dont think his first thought would be 'omg did they get any phat lewts? i should get some o that!'
Also, most of this thread seems to be from the opinion of a modern day thinker that lives in taxes left right and centre. medieval societies are different from that. They have taxes but they're not so.. complex and not on everything they do. You need to get out of that mindset.
lastly: Its a game. I say leave real life worries out of it. You'll be better off.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
Draxo said:
Medieval Europe only did not have too much in the way of taxes because the rulers were supported by serfs with food and labor. However, that's far from the only possibility in a pre-modern world. The free cities of medieval Germany had to support themselves via taxes, and could get quite inventive with those. The Roman Empire that preceeded them also had intricate tax systems. And the Chinese Empire certainly had plenty of taxes throughout its history.
Like the saying goes, only Death and Taxes are certaincies in life, and the latter has been with humanity ever since the first chieftain demanded a cut from the catches of his hunters.
I can't do that. Some of my most evil DMing ideas were inspired by real life. Besides, nothing motivates player characters as quickly as the prospect of loosing some of their toys...
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
Draxo said:
Hey, dealing with such issues in games can be fun, too! And quite satisfying, too - after all, in the real world you would have real consequences for killing the tax collector...
In real life, most of us are just small cogs in the machine. Anything we do will only have a limited impact on society at large. However, adventurers in D&D games are special - unlike most of us, they do have the power to change the fate of a nation significantly if they only set their mind to it. Allowing the PCs to deal with problems that also exist in the real world - such as taxes - gives them the opportunity to take out their frustrations in a healthy way. Your players might not be able to do anything about the IRS - but they certainly can do so about the oppressive system of government in the kingdom that crushes its people with taxation. And some great stories can be told in such a context.
Just ask Robin Hood about it.
DarkKestral
First Post
Historically, if you were an adventurer... You would generally cut a deal with the head of state where they would get a cut of X% in exchange for troops and supplies then, when you got a treasure hoard, you got the rest essentially tax-free and maybe even got to tax others, and would often get ennobled to boot if you weren't already if you pulled off a big enough heist, as enriching the lord's coffers by a large enough amount was often a good way into their good graces.
Likewise, in wars, looting bodies for valuables, ransoming off survivors, and then throwing the dead bodies in a ditch was kind of standard worldwide up until about the Renaissance era. Looting was considered the PRIME reason to go off to war, as it meant that one who survived long enough had a chance to become very very rich.
Letters of Marque likewise were similar in purpose to the contracts and feudal agreements made in earlier eras.
Thus, it's not stretching reality to assume that PCs, with their fantastic resources, would probably not get taxed much. 10%-20% maybe, and basically that's payment for the loan involved in supplying cash, supplies, and warriors to the adventurers. 5% if they supplied themselves, and that was payment for official protection from claimants. (usually other countries...) If it was war though, then that might get overlooked if the adventuring was part of a feudal agreement between adventurer and lord.. as going to war for the lord would be part of the 'price' for all of the rights the adventurer is given in terms of land and political power.
Likewise, in wars, looting bodies for valuables, ransoming off survivors, and then throwing the dead bodies in a ditch was kind of standard worldwide up until about the Renaissance era. Looting was considered the PRIME reason to go off to war, as it meant that one who survived long enough had a chance to become very very rich.
Letters of Marque likewise were similar in purpose to the contracts and feudal agreements made in earlier eras.
Thus, it's not stretching reality to assume that PCs, with their fantastic resources, would probably not get taxed much. 10%-20% maybe, and basically that's payment for the loan involved in supplying cash, supplies, and warriors to the adventurers. 5% if they supplied themselves, and that was payment for official protection from claimants. (usually other countries...) If it was war though, then that might get overlooked if the adventuring was part of a feudal agreement between adventurer and lord.. as going to war for the lord would be part of the 'price' for all of the rights the adventurer is given in terms of land and political power.
I suppose it depends on WHERE the adventurers are getting this loot, and how they get it.
If they're raiding a tomb in eastern Furyondy because they've heard it contains great relics - of COURSE they ought to be taxed, if not arrested for trespassing by the rightful owners of the land the tomb rests on. It's very easy to assign letters of outlawry to adventurers who just decide they're going to become grave robbers.
Or if Evil McVillain von BadGuy drops his big floating tower down, and the adventurers go climb it, slay EMcVvBG, and take his stuff - there they have some room for negotiation. Of course, they may well wind up being persona non grata if they're contemptuous or defiant to the law of the land.
It depends on the setting, really. Someone's mentioned the "letters of marque" in Eberron. Similar things could be given on an annual/quarterly/etc basis to adventurers who agree to pay a presumptive tax for them. Someone attempting to sell a magic item of any type without the letter of marque had better be a member of the local artisans' guild, or they may have some large half-ogres breathing down their neck in an alley in a quick and dirty solution to economic terrorism.
If they're raiding a tomb in eastern Furyondy because they've heard it contains great relics - of COURSE they ought to be taxed, if not arrested for trespassing by the rightful owners of the land the tomb rests on. It's very easy to assign letters of outlawry to adventurers who just decide they're going to become grave robbers.
Or if Evil McVillain von BadGuy drops his big floating tower down, and the adventurers go climb it, slay EMcVvBG, and take his stuff - there they have some room for negotiation. Of course, they may well wind up being persona non grata if they're contemptuous or defiant to the law of the land.
It depends on the setting, really. Someone's mentioned the "letters of marque" in Eberron. Similar things could be given on an annual/quarterly/etc basis to adventurers who agree to pay a presumptive tax for them. Someone attempting to sell a magic item of any type without the letter of marque had better be a member of the local artisans' guild, or they may have some large half-ogres breathing down their neck in an alley in a quick and dirty solution to economic terrorism.
Warren Okuma
First Post
And in DnD it's worth XP's as well, if done right.Jürgen Hubert said:Hey, dealing with such issues in games can be fun, too! And quite satisfying, too - after all, in the real world you would have real consequences for killing the tax collector...
And get XP's for it!Jürgen Hubert said:
Yup. And make sure you know what you face and where the treasury is.Jürgen Hubert said:
kigmatzomat
Legend
I use the "self for half" as the way to waive away most taxes. However I made it more blatant a time or two just to make the lord granting them tax exemptions to be a treasure of its own.
For instance, city entrance fees and toll roads. As a low level adventurer you can either a) take the patrolled toll road or b) go cross country and hope you don't find bandits or monsters. As a more advanced adventurer (~4th level) those bandits aren't as much of a threat but the time lost by going the long way could be important, so getting to use the roads freely is a "treasure."
the party once acquired a haul of loot and decided to sell it at a fair directly to the public rather than through a broker. They found they had to pay merchant guild fees, buy a fair permit, and pay taxes on items sold. The local thieves' guild was hired to be spotters for the guard, with a bounty paid for each merchant found to be cheating as well.
Later I granted them a permanent slot at the fair, honorary guild status, and reduced or eliminated taxes on items sold (basically increasing their base percentage when selling items). This increasing the amount of items the party saved to sell at the fair, thus causing a nock-on effect of boosting the fair's overall appeal.
I can actually give out less treasure than normally required by RAW and the party still be at the correct wealth level.
For instance, city entrance fees and toll roads. As a low level adventurer you can either a) take the patrolled toll road or b) go cross country and hope you don't find bandits or monsters. As a more advanced adventurer (~4th level) those bandits aren't as much of a threat but the time lost by going the long way could be important, so getting to use the roads freely is a "treasure."
the party once acquired a haul of loot and decided to sell it at a fair directly to the public rather than through a broker. They found they had to pay merchant guild fees, buy a fair permit, and pay taxes on items sold. The local thieves' guild was hired to be spotters for the guard, with a bounty paid for each merchant found to be cheating as well.
Later I granted them a permanent slot at the fair, honorary guild status, and reduced or eliminated taxes on items sold (basically increasing their base percentage when selling items). This increasing the amount of items the party saved to sell at the fair, thus causing a nock-on effect of boosting the fair's overall appeal.
I can actually give out less treasure than normally required by RAW and the party still be at the correct wealth level.
SiderisAnon
First Post
Taxes, taxes, taxes
I use taxes in my game. I tend to run a slightly more "realistic" setting than base D&D, trying to use as much historical knowledge as I can, so that makes taxes a part of the setting. Most of my players accept it as normal. They expect to pay a portion of anything they find on claimed land. They figure that if they bring in lots of goods to trade in a city, they'll end up paying some sort of taxes. They also look forward to trying to avoid taxes when they bring stuff in from far off -- places that shouldn't be covered by strict taxes, just import fees.
Dealing with taxes is all part of the game. In one of my long running games where the party had a base of operations in a city, dealing with the tax collector when they returned was sometimes as much or more fun than the adventure. The party came up with some really creative ways to avoid taxes, including actually getting involved in local politics. (Such as convincing the head of a powerful church that since the party had recovered holy artifacts, they were working for the church, so they shouldn't pay taxes on the rest of the stuff, since the church is exempt from such taxes.)
What has always boggled my mind is the players I run into who not only believe that adventurers should be tax free, but actually get offended by the idea of paying taxes. I had a player basically quit the game because he felt all the nobles were out to get him (or his character).
I have found that the players who are most opposed to taxes are also the ones who think their character should live life without consequences. In my experience, these are the same people who think that every power should do what the party says just because they're cool adventurers or something. The players make it clear that NPCs should recognize them as the heroes and act accordingly. It's a logic I just don't understand and try to keep out of my game. Yes, you are heroes, but this isn't Hollywood or a video game, there are consequences.
I must say that I really like the simplification of saying that part of the sell for 50% rule covers taxes. This does make things a lot easier. If I run another group of mostly new players, I will probably start by using this. Let them worry about the details later when they're more comfortable with the game.
I use taxes in my game. I tend to run a slightly more "realistic" setting than base D&D, trying to use as much historical knowledge as I can, so that makes taxes a part of the setting. Most of my players accept it as normal. They expect to pay a portion of anything they find on claimed land. They figure that if they bring in lots of goods to trade in a city, they'll end up paying some sort of taxes. They also look forward to trying to avoid taxes when they bring stuff in from far off -- places that shouldn't be covered by strict taxes, just import fees.
Dealing with taxes is all part of the game. In one of my long running games where the party had a base of operations in a city, dealing with the tax collector when they returned was sometimes as much or more fun than the adventure. The party came up with some really creative ways to avoid taxes, including actually getting involved in local politics. (Such as convincing the head of a powerful church that since the party had recovered holy artifacts, they were working for the church, so they shouldn't pay taxes on the rest of the stuff, since the church is exempt from such taxes.)
What has always boggled my mind is the players I run into who not only believe that adventurers should be tax free, but actually get offended by the idea of paying taxes. I had a player basically quit the game because he felt all the nobles were out to get him (or his character).
I have found that the players who are most opposed to taxes are also the ones who think their character should live life without consequences. In my experience, these are the same people who think that every power should do what the party says just because they're cool adventurers or something. The players make it clear that NPCs should recognize them as the heroes and act accordingly. It's a logic I just don't understand and try to keep out of my game. Yes, you are heroes, but this isn't Hollywood or a video game, there are consequences.
I must say that I really like the simplification of saying that part of the sell for 50% rule covers taxes. This does make things a lot easier. If I run another group of mostly new players, I will probably start by using this. Let them worry about the details later when they're more comfortable with the game.
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