D&D General Lore Questions About Spelljamming Uses of Magic, Cosmology, Metaphysics

[Beleriphon]

It is noteworthy that Spelljammer existed in Planescape (there's a module where they mention buying a squidship) as it Athas (there's an Athasian elf who runs between the upper planes as a merchant/courier).
Be that as it may, each world can be a part of the core rules or not. However, they did hint that planewalkers from other worlds had been to Eberron, which was technically not part of the Great Wheel.

Rising basically says that whatever created Eberron and its Orrery cosmology severed it from the rest of the D&D multiverse. In theory it is part of the multiverse, but it is inaccessible and generally unknown. Which works fine for the setup. If you really think about it if the rest of the multiverse gained access it wouldn't change too much on the divine side of things. Most Eberronians would look at Kord or Bane or Bhaal and go, "Huh, looks like a demon lord. Real gods don't need bodies."

 

[Aelryinth]

While this "who's magic is stronger" argument is... vaguely interesting. I think there is a larger point being missed.

Even if the resident two dozen archmages are more powerful than anything else Eberron has, that isn't what people are usually talking about when they discuss this sort of scenario. To misquote a super hero novel "Capes don't win wars, you need boots."

The average soldier of Eberron is better equipped than the average Faeriunian or Orethian. Because of the wide nature of Eberron's crafting, it would not be unreasonable to assume that most of their soldiers would be equipped with Wands, Magic Shields, and Magic Armor. Not powerfully magically, but better than the average soldier on the other side. And that means in a direct conflict, the Eberron army wins.

Sure, the circle of Archmagi could set aside their differences and start acting, but Army Killing Spells are few, and they need to be targeted. And Eberron armies know how to counter powerful spellcasters, because that is exactly what they faced in the Last War.

Airship travel could drop hundreds of troops on top of enemy strongholds with barely any warning. Each armed with a blasting charge for destroying fortifications. So, they could drop on a wizard's tower, turn it to rubble, and strike heavy blows against the wizard's resources.

This is not true.
Eberon's troops have to obey the same cost/level that Faerun's and Oerth's do. They have the same equipment lists, they'll have the same basic gear... and generally speaking, they are a level or two lower.
Eberron has magewrights who can use wands, but faerun and Oerth have far more true spellcasters, especially priests.
Eberron fights powerful casters... who are 10-12, maybe. They have no experience whatsoever in dealing with multiple archcasters.
Oerth has a demonic demigod and a kingdom fallen to Hell right there. they are used to fighting DEMONS.
Faerun has experience fighting dragonflights... and phaerimm and Netherese, among other things.
I agree with you that eberron has a higher magitech floor then the other two, i.e. standard of living for non-mages. But their operational stuff is no better on the face of it, and in pure magic, the other two worlds are far, far more advanced.
An archmage doesn't have to wipe an army. He only has to wipe the commanders, and/or kill key elements every day... which he can pretty much do. Just Summoning up Elemental hordes, dropping AoE's on barracks, sending multiple cloudkills this way and that, or Banshee Wailing your officers dead is easy enough... and he can just repeat this every day, picking off the low level guys who might be able to do something with equipment with nigh impunity.
Archcasters are not dumb, and at the same time, its very, very hard for low level people to do anything to them, and the archcasters will know what they can do, remove that threat first, and then go to town.

So, in summary, Eberron isn't going to win the boots war, because the boots will be slaughtered by the high levels. Boots can only hold ground, but magical war is not modern war. In magical war, powerful individuals win the fight. Soldiers only fight when the powerful do not. If you can't neutralize or counter the powerful people on the other side, your boots are just going to die.
I would also point out that the population of Faerun dwarfs Eberron, although I'm not sure how Oerth's nations measure up.
Eberron's ability to produce constructs is impressive. Faerun's and Oerth's ability to destroy the places that produce those constructs is even more impressive.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is not true.
Eberon's troops have to obey the same cost/level that Faerun's and Oerth's do. They have the same equipment lists, they'll have the same basic gear... and generally speaking, they are a level or two lower.
Eberron has magewrights who can use wands, but faerun and Oerth have far more true spellcasters, especially priests.
Eberron fights powerful casters... who are 10-12, maybe. They have no experience whatsoever in dealing with multiple archcasters.
Oerth has a demonic demigod and a kingdom fallen to Hell right there. they are used to fighting DEMONS.
Faerun has experience fighting dragonflights... and phaerimm and Netherese, among other things.
I agree with you that eberron has a higher magitech floor then the other two, i.e. standard of living for non-mages. But their operational stuff is no better on the face of it, and in pure magic, the other two worlds are far, far more advanced.
An archmage doesn't have to wipe an army. He only has to wipe the commanders, and/or kill key elements every day... which he can pretty much do. Just Summoning up Elemental hordes, dropping AoE's on barracks, sending multiple cloudkills this way and that, or Banshee Wailing your officers dead is easy enough... and he can just repeat this every day, picking off the low level guys who might be able to do something with equipment with nigh impunity.
Archcasters are not dumb, and at the same time, its very, very hard for low level people to do anything to them, and the archcasters will know what they can do, remove that threat first, and then go to town.

So, in summary, Eberron isn't going to win the boots war, because the boots will be slaughtered by the high levels. Boots can only hold ground, but magical war is not modern war. In magical war, powerful individuals win the fight. Soldiers only fight when the powerful do not. If you can't neutralize or counter the powerful people on the other side, your boots are just going to die.
I would also point out that the population of Faerun dwarfs Eberron, although I'm not sure how Oerth's nations measure up.
Eberron's ability to produce constructs is impressive. Faerun's and Oerth's ability to destroy the places that produce those constructs is even more impressive.

How do you figure their equipment lists are the same? Magewrights exist to make "common magical items" and that doesn't exist in the other settings.

Sure, you have a wizard's college, and maybe a few apprentice wizards might make something, but there is no where near the production capability to outfit entire armies with magical gear, which Eberron traditionally has.

And while Iuz does exist, he doesn't exactly take the field himself, he sends his minions to do the fighting. He fields armies. And that is because of how difficult it is to fight an entire army by yourself.

I would also like to note, that the Houses of Eberron (while fractious) can and do cooperate, and do so at a macro-economic level. So, their betrayals of each other take place in the world's of economics or corporate espionage.

Meanwhile, the fractious archcasters in the other worlds are in direct opposition on a personal level, and even if an Eberron army couldn't take out a archcaster (something I highly doubt to be true unless you used 3.5 rules which made high level characters immune to low level ones, which would not exactly be accurate fiction) there is little to prevent the enemies of that caster from showing up and killing them after they used all their mojo killing an army.


To focus on some more tactical discussions.

Summoning Elemental Hordes: Elementals are not immune to normal attacks, and they are not resistant to magic. They are tough, but nothing to suggest they are tougher than mage-bred creatures or Warforged Titans.

Banshee Wail isn't 5e, so I can't comment, but if it just kills people within 60 ft who fail a save... That actually isn't terribly devastating compared to an artillery blast, and 60 ft in a loose formation is not many people of an army, who could then turn and fire upon you.

Cloudkill: Eberron is meant to emulate some of the horrors of the World Wars, so gas attacks would be common. Add that to the fact that Cloudkill moves at a horrifically slow 10 ft a turn, anyone not caught in the tiny 20ft radius area (compared to the size of, again, an army) could easily avoid it without even having to dash, and again, focus fire on the caster.


And, one size for a moment, I'm going to pull some British empire numbers just for a quick glance through.

A single Company of men was generally about 220. They generally stood about 4 lines deep, that is 55 men to a line. If I was dealing with artillery/fireballs, I would generally want to space about 10 ft apart. Everyone has a weapon capable of long range after all, so formation fighting would generally be more of a detriment than an aid.

So, at 10 ft apart, the first line would stretch nearly 550 ft and be 40 ft deep. An area of 22,000 sq ft. Even a truly massive spell with a radius of 50 ft will only cover 7,850 sq ft. If that kills everyone in it, you still have about 150 soldiers left.

And armies are generally multiple companies.

 

[Bohandas]

And while Iuz does exist, he doesn't exactly take the field himself, he sends his minions to do the fighting. He fields armies. And that is because of how difficult it is to fight an entire army by yourself.

At the end of the original Temple of Elemental Evil he attacks the PCs personally (but is driven off by St.Cuthbert of the PCs manage to survive for two or three rounds.)

 

[Bohandas]

So, at 10 ft apart, the first line would stretch nearly 550 ft and be 40 ft deep. An area of 22,000 sq ft. Even a truly massive spell with a radius of 50 ft will only cover 7,850 sq ft. If that kills everyone in it, you still have about 150 soldiers left.

The epic spell Rain of Fire has a 2 mile radius

 

[Aelryinth]

How do you figure their equipment lists are the same? Magewrights exist to make "common magical items" and that doesn't exist in the other settings.

Sure, you have a wizard's college, and maybe a few apprentice wizards might make something, but there is no where near the production capability to outfit entire armies with magical gear, which Eberron traditionally has.

And while Iuz does exist, he doesn't exactly take the field himself, he sends his minions to do the fighting. He fields armies. And that is because of how difficult it is to fight an entire army by yourself.

I would also like to note, that the Houses of Eberron (while fractious) can and do cooperate, and do so at a macro-economic level. So, their betrayals of each other take place in the world's of economics or corporate espionage.

Meanwhile, the fractious archcasters in the other worlds are in direct opposition on a personal level, and even if an Eberron army couldn't take out a archcaster (something I highly doubt to be true unless you used 3.5 rules which made high level characters immune to low level ones, which would not exactly be accurate fiction) there is little to prevent the enemies of that caster from showing up and killing them after they used all their mojo killing an army.


To focus on some more tactical discussions.

Summoning Elemental Hordes: Elementals are not immune to normal attacks, and they are not resistant to magic. They are tough, but nothing to suggest they are tougher than mage-bred creatures or Warforged Titans.

Banshee Wail isn't 5e, so I can't comment, but if it just kills people within 60 ft who fail a save... That actually isn't terribly devastating compared to an artillery blast, and 60 ft in a loose formation is not many people of an army, who could then turn and fire upon you.

Cloudkill: Eberron is meant to emulate some of the horrors of the World Wars, so gas attacks would be common. Add that to the fact that Cloudkill moves at a horrifically slow 10 ft a turn, anyone not caught in the tiny 20ft radius area (compared to the size of, again, an army) could easily avoid it without even having to dash, and again, focus fire on the caster.


And, one size for a moment, I'm going to pull some British empire numbers just for a quick glance through.

A single Company of men was generally about 220. They generally stood about 4 lines deep, that is 55 men to a line. If I was dealing with artillery/fireballs, I would generally want to space about 10 ft apart. Everyone has a weapon capable of long range after all, so formation fighting would generally be more of a detriment than an aid.

So, at 10 ft apart, the first line would stretch nearly 550 ft and be 40 ft deep. An area of 22,000 sq ft. Even a truly massive spell with a radius of 50 ft will only cover 7,850 sq ft. If that kills everyone in it, you still have about 150 soldiers left.

And armies are generally multiple companies.

Okay, part of the problem here is that this is a Spelljammer discussion, which moves us to the common element of 1-3e, where SPelljammer exists. Eberron is also fundamentally and originally a 3e world.
Money and equipmentwise, eberron and the other worlds all use the same price lists, and the same wealth by level. It's all part of the rules. They have no advantage whatsoever in equipping anyone. Magewrights exist to make magitech to increase the standard of living, and have absolutely no macro influence on WBL and what can and cannot be given to your soldiers. If you are going to start claiming that Eberron can make things that Faerun cannot, the obverse also applies. Faerun has a far, far deeper magical heritage then Eberron can imagine, and again, Archcasters all over the damn place.

Look up the area of effects for Transmute Rock to Mud and Cloudkill in prior Editions. They are freaking massive, and Cloudkill moves at 30 there, not 10. If you are trying to hold a position, you are dead. It instantly kills anything of 4 HD or less, 5-6 HD saves at -4, 7-8 at normal, and 9+ are immune. So the archcaster can fill the area around him with death and be completely immune to it.
Oh, and then Widen it to double all the dimensions, too. And make it invisible, potentially.

Here's the stats for a Warforged Titan: Warforged Titan - Eberron Unlimited

Here's Elemental Swarm: Elemental Swarm :: d20srd.org

Here's the elementals: Elemental :: d20srd.org

A huge elemental will slaughter a warforged titan, and a Greater Elemental will kill multiples of them. If a Titan dies, you are out massive amounts of resources used to make it. If an Elemental dies... the archcaster casts the spell again.

a Lightning BOlt has a range of Long. It can rip a 10' line 1200 feet long through a formation.
Greater Lightning Storm can call down literally dozens of bolts over time onto a scattered formation, completely disrupting any unit cohesion.
Summon Monster VI+ can Summon tons of low level monsters right on top of you.
That save to avoid Wail of the Banshee is likely to be a 29. A soldier might have a 5% chance of saving against it.
A Meteor Swarm can take out half an acre, which means the core of your elite troops, or your command center, from 400 yards away or up in the air.
A Gate spell could bring in a Planetar, another 17th level caster.
Holy Word spells will instantly kill anyone of the wrong alignment and half the level or less nearby.

Those are just AoE's. An archcaster's ability to take out single, expensive targets is naturally much higher. One disintegrate spell can take out a Warforged Titan. A rain of fireballs and lightning bolts, or Just Call Lightning, from up in the sky will obliterate your artillery. Command of the weather will drown your troops in water and mud and leave them unable to go anywhere. Call in demons or the like to spread disease among your troops. Charm their commanders to give them the wrong orders.

I am not an Intellect 30 Archmage. Such beingsa re Not Dumb. Low level people have no way of dealing with everything an archcaster can bring to the table repeatedly.
The game is not the real world. In the real world, you shoot somebody, anybody, they can die instantly. In D&D, you can empty the entire clip into a high level character, and they'll just look at you funny. The combination of HP and AC is basically untouchable in the game we are talking about.

Now, if you want to go 5e... they reined in things a lot. But 5e is not the game of SPelljammer, nor the game Eberron was designed as. The bounded accuracy is not a thing. High level existences can kill armies on their own, bring down nations and kings.
Iuz doesn't move from his capitol because that's where he's strong and his defenses are. If he moves outside it, his enemies could act, and take him out. Those high level foes can't act freely either, because if they get distracted, Iuz could do something.
High levels constrain high levels. Eberron does not have those high level characters. It's part of the canon, the very design of the setting, that it NOT have them. It's the PC's who will end up being those high level characters, there's no Elminister to pull the world's fat out of the fire.
Faerun, on the other hand, is overflowing with archcasters, and is a setting for high level characters and high magic. Eberron is not its equal in raw power, and it is DESIGNED to be that way.

Yeah, you can buy a better pair of shoes and take the lightning rail. But that doesn't make you tougher or more deadly.

 

[Aelryinth]

The epic spell Rain of Fire has a 2 mile radius

and you have to be level 21 to cast it. How many level level 21 casters are there in faerun? Literally dozens. Every Zulkir of Thay, for starters..., every one of mYstra's chosen who is a Caster, and so many bloody others.

 

[Coroc]

The epic spell Rain of Fire has a 2 mile radius

It is "rain of colorless fire" and did wipe out two nations once. I is the one of the most epic spells ever, but you need an artifact and the right location for its full effect and people who are high level individuals themselves who are ready to reinforce the spell with their lifeforce.
The spell was cast in response to the invoked devastation, which was caused by the bringer of doom, another artifact. The invoked devastation created an overlay of the prime with the grey waste plane, and unfortunately there was an army of hordlings just maneuvering within the area of the grey waste which was overlaying the prime.

 

[Bohandas]

It is "rain of colorless fire" and did wipe out two nations once. I is the one of the most epic spells ever, but you need an artifact and the right location for its full effect and people who are high level individuals themselves who are ready to reinforce the spell with their lifeforce.

I'm talking about the spell from page 50 of the Epic Level Handbook, which is presumably the tactical version, and trades most of the original cayaclysm's area for a lack of backlash or foci and a one minute casring time

 

[R_J_K75]

Bottom line is, travel to and fro Dark Sun by the normal means is possible, just far less common.

IIRC to go from Faerun to Athas you had to enter the border etheral from there the deep etheral then the Grey and eventually you'd come out on Athas. Pretty sure there was a table somewhere that listed the % chances of successfully navigating both the deep ethereal and the Grey but if you failed you were lost forever. Its been a very long time since I thought about this so I could be a bit off.