D&D General Lore Questions About Spelljamming Uses of Magic, Cosmology, Metaphysics

[Bitbrain]

On top of that, eberron would treat . . . while athas would just git a little more crapsack in different ways

Yeah, no. I don’t see that outcome happening on Athas.

What’s more likely to occur (in my opinion) is what happened between the Borg and Species 8472...

Ashbound Druid: you (the dragonmarked houses) started this war, didn’t you! What’s the matter, our planet wasn’t big enough for you? You had to go and exploit some new territory? But this place fought back... a civilization more powerful and malevolent than your own.

Silver Flame Cleric: so instead of gaining more wealth, you opened a door for them into our world...

 

[Aelryinth]

It has organization and technology. They wouldn't need to kill off eliminster just to shepherd the primitives into the modern age, establish proper trade communication networks and so on. Even something as basic as mining. Forestry/logging, mining, etc would be upended to the point of the old ways collapsing and becoming unsustainable as modern methods are introduced to those willing to sign on the gas line of the contract with the new colonial power.

As to those high level wizards, the dragon mark houses have plenty of resources to hire them and ways to offer them a better life.

Apologies, but you're mistaking the power of high level wizards.
Eberron has NOTHING that the wizards of Oerth and especially FR can't duplicate, since the number of high level Mages vastly, vastly, VASTLY outnumbers that of Eberron. Every major city has a mage of 15+ toodling around, all the larger ones have an archcaster of SOME kind, and the BIG cities have multiple archmages.
Eberron has exactly 1 Druid/20, the highest caster in the place, and he's a pine tree.
If Eberron goes to Faerun, some high level character are going to come through, loot the place of its knowledge, eberron will find it almost impossible to stop them, and then they'll all go home laughing.
What the Red Wizards of Thay, who average level 11, could do to Eberron does not need to be described. The average Red Wizard is equal to a great eberonian hero, and the Zulkirs are post-20's with NO EBERRONIAN RIVALS.
Hells, FR has a mercenary company whose core power are f/6's!
Faerunians are used to dealing with dragonflights and renegade dragons. Eberron runs screaming from dragons. Deities and demigods seem to be running around all the time, what's this Lords of Dust and mutant guys underground? that's like, great! Great xp, man!
Seriously, the smart eberronians would very quietly show up, realize there's the equivalent of an guildmaster wizard on every other street corner, with itchy fireball fingers, and go home before some decide to emigrate and take them over.
Elminster? Yeah, if he was serious, no Eberonian team would ever get a toehold on Faerun, simply because he could unequivocally shut down permanently the transfer method, AND remove permanently anyone who could replace or fix it. You little artificer/12's should not mess with Wizard/29's, you know?

 

[Aelryinth]

Yeah. I thought that (other than its sphere not opening to the spells that are supposed to open them) Athas was merely closed off to planar travel like Ravenloft and Sigil

ravenloft is actually in the demiplane of dread, not the prime. Athas did indeed have a different planar connections, esp with the gods, but there was still a way to the outer planes, probably through the elemental, as I mentioned the Athasian elf who worked as a courier in the upper planes.
And yes, it's sphere existed in Spelljammer, but you couldn't open it from outside, so... moot point?

 

[Bohandas]

What the Red Wizards of Thay, who average level 11, could do to Eberron does not need to be described. The average Red Wizard is equal to a great eberonian hero, and the Zulkirs are post-20's with NO EBERRONIAN RIVALS.

What about Elabenna and the other residents of Io'lokar?

 

[Aelryinth]

What about Elabenna and the other residents of Io'lokar?

you've got one elven archmage and one great wyrm gold against the zulkirs of thay, in a city that has a dozen or so bigger rivals in Thay. Io'Iokar might actually be analogous to a single decent faerunian city with a magical prescence... and certainly would dominate anything of similar size in Eberron. However, compare it to any major Faerunian city, and it's going to come up short in raw magical power, and certainly to any magical nation or city-state, let alone Thay!

 

[Bohandas]

Apologies, but you're mistaking the power of high level wizards.
Eberron has NOTHING that the wizards of Oerth and especially FR can't duplicate,

I'm sorry, but Oreth's mages are way above Faerun's. Mordenkainen isn't Oreth's most powerful wizard, he's just the most powerful wizard who hasn't already become a god. Zagyg Yragerne imprisoned nine of the gods in his basement and that was before he became a god himself

 

[Bohandas]

you've got one elven archmage and one great wyrm gold against the zulkirs of thay, in a city that has a dozen or so bigger rivals in Thay. Io'Iokar might actually be analogous to a single decent faerunian city with a magical prescence... and certainly would dominate anything of similar size in Eberron. However, compare it to any major Faerunian city, and it's going to come up short in raw magical power, and certainly to any magical nation or city-state, let alone Thay!

Yeah, but EVERYONE in Io'lokar is like level 15+

The Steelbenders are level 23 on average, and there's also an entire theater company who are all level 15 illusionists.

 

[Aelryinth]

I'm sorry, but Oreth's mages are way above Faerun's. Mordenkainen isn't Oreth's most powerful wizard, he's just the most powerful wizard who hasn't already become a god. Zagyg Yragerne imprisoned nine of the gods in his basement and that was before he became a god himself

Whoa, nelly. I like Oerth more then FR, but this is just not true. Zagyg is simply a demigod, and like a chaotic counterpart to Azuth (who is a lesser god, not a demigod). Faerun is chock full of post-20 characters, and the vast majority of them are archmages. Some, like the Simbul, are post-30. Mordenkainen wasn't even as strong as Rary (who was 23rd, IIRC?), and Rary wouldn't even rate in the top twenty archmages of the Realms.
There's just way too much archmage level inflation in FR.

 

[Aelryinth]

Yeah, but EVERYONE in Io'lokar is like level 15+

I"d have to see a statistical stat block stating that. Magically powerful in Eberron means a bunch of /4 to /6's with PC Classes instead of being Magewrights. If that was a city of 92000 level 15+'s, sorry, the dragons wouldn't be running Argonnessen at all. They'd have been obliterated for attitude long ago. So would the lords of Dust and stuff, too. Eesh! Just the Rituals they could do would make your skin crawl.

 

[Bohandas]

Whoa, nelly. I like Oerth more then FR, but this is just not true. Zagyg is simply a demigod, and like a chaotic counterpart to Azuth (who is a lesser god, not a demigod). Faerun is chock full of post-20 characters, and the vast majority of them are archmages. Some, like the Simbul, are post-30. Mordenkainen wasn't even as strong as Rary (who was 23rd, IIRC?), and Rary wouldn't even rate in the top twenty archmages of the Realms.
There's just way too much archmage level inflation in FR.

Like I said, you're not gonna find that many high level mortal spellcasters on Oreth, but there's a crapton of gods who were formerly mortals. Zagyg, Vecna, Murlynd, Quaal, Heward, Keoghtom, Nolzur, Daern the Unshakable (not to be confused with Daern of Hawksroot), and Iuz

 

[Aelryinth]

Like I said, you're not gonna find that many high level mortal spellcasters on Oreth, but there's a crapton of gods who were formerly mortals. Zagyg, Vecna, Murlynd, Quaal, Heward, Keoghtom, Nolzur, Daern the Unshakable (not to be confused with Daern of Hawksroot), and Iuz

Hero-deities and quasi-deities are about on the power of the Seven Sisters and the Chosen of the Gods of Faerun, like Elminister, at best. Azuth is a former mortal, as is Savros, who competed with him for godhood as the Lord of all Spells. So were Bane, Baal, Myrkul, Cyric, Kelemvor, Torm, Malar, Gwaeron Windstrom, and Finder, and they got further up the godhood ladder.
Kelenan's AD&D statblock is blown away by Elminister's, as is Murlynd's.
So, mages becoming very low-powered quasi-deities, which if you've read the original stats for the like of Murlynd and Kelenan, they are, isn't an argument, either.
They certainly have more flavor and give Oerth a very different character then Faerun... but it's a gritty character, not a hyped up powerful one.

 

[Bohandas]

I"d have to see a statistical stat block stating that. Magically powerful in Eberron means a bunch of /4 to /6's with PC Classes instead of being Magewrights. If that was a city of 92000 level 15+'s, sorry, the dragons wouldn't be running Argonnessen at all. They'd have been obliterated for attitude long ago. So would the lords of Dust and stuff, too. Eesh! Just the Rituals they could do would make your skin crawl.

Page 40 of Dragons of Argonesson states "A lowly clerk living in the Freeward
might well be a 7th-level expert/8th-level adept whose accumulated knowledge would make a Morgrave professor weep."

As for the dragons, they stay ahead because they also seem to often have many levels

 

[Aelryinth]

Page 40 of Dragons of Argonesson states "A lowly clerk living in the Freeward
might well be a 7th-level expert/8th-level adept whose accumulated knowledge would make a Morgrave professor weep."

As for the dragons, they stay ahead because they also seem to often have many levels

Sure, and you can run across a Warrior/15 slumming in the pits of Sharn, too.
But you're claiming they are ALL level 15... which is pretty excessive, no matter how you look at it. Why, that's almost equal to Netheril or Myth Drannor!


Being able to stumble across high level characters in the city as frequently as you might in, oh, Waterdeep, is already crazy powerful for Eberron!

 

[Bohandas]

The text implies that this is a typical clerk, not someone extraordinary

 

[Aelryinth]

The text implies that this is a typical clerk, not someone extraordinary

So does finding a Warrior/15 working in the forgerooms of Sharn. That still doesn't meant everyone is a fifteen, or even a Six. Exceptional people are going to be rare, and in Eberron, they are much rarer then Faerun.

 

[Bohandas]

Again, the text implies that this is NOT an exceptional person

 

[Aelryinth]

He's a /15. he's exceptional by definition. he's just in an unexceptional job.

 

[Bohandas]

You're begging the question

 

[Chaosmancer]

While this "who's magic is stronger" argument is... vaguely interesting. I think there is a larger point being missed.

Even if the resident two dozen archmages are more powerful than anything else Eberron has, that isn't what people are usually talking about when they discuss this sort of scenario. To misquote a super hero novel "Capes don't win wars, you need boots."

The average soldier of Eberron is better equipped than the average Faeriunian or Orethian. Because of the wide nature of Eberron's crafting, it would not be unreasonable to assume that most of their soldiers would be equipped with Wands, Magic Shields, and Magic Armor. Not powerfully magically, but better than the average soldier on the other side. And that means in a direct conflict, the Eberron army wins.

Sure, the circle of Archmagi could set aside their differences and start acting, but Army Killing Spells are few, and they need to be targeted. And Eberron armies know how to counter powerful spellcasters, because that is exactly what they faced in the Last War.

Airship travel could drop hundreds of troops on top of enemy strongholds with barely any warning. Each armed with a blasting charge for destroying fortifications. So, they could drop on a wizard's tower, turn it to rubble, and strike heavy blows against the wizard's resources.

 

[Bohandas]

That said, Oreth and Toril do have said army killing spells. Oreth has epic spells that are equivalent to an atomic bomb (Rain of Fire and Invoked Devestation) and Toril has spells that curse entire planets (Dracorage Mythal), all they'd need to do is put some high level bodyguards on the casters and they could easily crush Khorvaire. The main thing from Eberron that would present a problem to them is the entire continent of dragons with PC class levels.