D&D 5E Eberron versus Multiverse

[tetrasodium]

I’m sorry, again I’m not versed in the setting, but does the concept of gods exist in Eberron? If it does, then I would think that the question would arise with some regularity as to whether such beings as gods actually exist. I’m under the impression that Eberron is supposed to be a setting in which that question is open-ended. If the setting book answers that question for you, however, then it isn’t open-ended any more, which negates that part of the setting.

From what I’m reading here, it seems that according to this book, it’s still true that the gods of Eberron might not exist, but it is now also true in Eberron that gods do objectively exist.

It's a little more complicated than that & a big chunk of your confusion is almost certainly due to the frankly bizarre misinterpretations & misrepresentations of the OP in this thread.

The "concept" of gods, but their existence (or lack of)is a philosophical question rather than an objective provable fact. The exception to this is The Silver Flame/kalok shah, but it has nothing in common with what any setting (including eberron itself) would call a god, The silver flame is more of a force or conflagration of mortal souls/energy of celestial beings akin to the sacred flame cantrip scaled past epic eldritch machine power levels. You can go to the flamekeep (Think the CoSF Vatican analog) to see a piece of it if you want.

Any "evidence" that gods exist in eberron is subjective interpretations & a lot like what certain extremely devout religions people on earth will point at as "evidence" god exists. If you were to cast a spell like augury/gate/planar binding/etc not only would the celestial involved be unable to give any better evidence; but they might not even want to be wasting time interacting with you instead of whatever more important things they could be doing.

Demon Overlords exist & are bound in Khyber, that is a knowable fact. Back in 3.5 they had deific ranks, but mostly that was because 3.5 had mechanics that were tied to those. There's 30 or so overlords & most are left to the gm to define (ie not even a name). The ones that do exist are often forces of nature & concepts given flesh & free will which makes them absurdly powerful should they ever be unbound.... How do you fight the rage of winter, unknowable truths, secrets whispered from shadows, etc when given a vessel of flesh & free will?.. Their existance is extremely important to eberron, but not because they are actively doing anything. They set the foundation for soooo many things from 998yk/present day all the way back to the equivalent of eberron's big bang.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Is that... sensible?

Sure. Why not?

I mean, really. How many centuries of history does the world have? All of the gods have just not bothered? ALL OF THEM have just not ever bothered?

Or have they influenced the world through means that mere Eberronites can't fully understand. Perhaps the Prophecy is them influencing the world. Or maybe Eberron is sealed away so that they can't meddle with it for some reason... hmmm, I'm gonna explore this idea later.

Does it say who sealed Eberron off from the rest of the Multiverse, because I can't find it.

A whole world of potential worshipers they could have, but... choose not to of their own volition? All of them make that same choice, and have for the entire history of the world?

They're not potential worshipers. They're actual worshipers. Maybe not all of them. But, if I'm reading the books right, the majority of them are.

Does that make sense, for gods? Does that match their behavior pretty much anywhere else in the multiverse?

It doesn't make sense for the infantile, petty, squabbling gods of Greyhawk and FR. But it could make sense for immortal beings who have all of eternity to do whatever they're doing. Maybe that is why Eberron is sealed away from the Multiverse. So that the Squabblers are kept out.

Or maybe it's a giant game or a puzzle set up by the gods and sealed away so that their more troublesome members can't meddle with it. Maybe THEY don't know what the Prophecy is leading towards and they created Eberron as a sort of simulation to see what can be made of it. Perhaps there are many Eberron-like sealed off worlds all running the Prophecy to see where it leads. Mayhaps that's Eberrons whole purpose.

Maybe the three Progenitor Dragons were simply the laborers/artisans who created the simulation for the gods. No one knows.

So many options. Most, I'm sure are hogwash, but...

 

[PsyzhranV2]

I’m sorry, again I’m not versed in the setting, but does the concept of gods exist in Eberron? If it does, then I would think that the question would arise with some regularity as to whether such beings as gods actually exist. I’m under the impression that Eberron is supposed to be a setting in which that question is open-ended. If the setting book answers that question for you, however, then it isn’t open-ended any more, which negates that part of the setting.

From what I’m reading here, it seems that according to this book, it’s still true that the gods of Eberron might not exist, but it is now also true in Eberron that gods do objectively exist.

The concepts of gods exists, but their existence is left an open-ended question, particularly with regards to the Sovereigns and Six, the most commonly worshiped pantheon in Eberron. The following excerpt from this blog post Keith wrote, while not technically "canon" in the strictest sense, explains the mentality and concepts that most people on Eberron hold towards the gods: Dark Six: Myths and The Fury

There are many myths of the Sovereigns and Six. Dol Arrah battling Death itself. The Mockery’s betrayal of his siblings Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn, only to be stripped of name and skin by his brother. The Keeper bargaining with Death to gain the power to steal souls. The birth of the Fury, Aureon unleashing the Shadow. We’ve only mentioned a few of these myths in canon sources, but there are hundreds within the world. Often these explain natural phenomena; the massive volcano in the Mror Holds is called the Fist of Onatar, because it’s said that Onatar smashed the mountain to create his first forge.

How can this be? Deities don’t physically manifest in Eberron. The Devourer is the storm and the raging sea, not an angry giant who’s going to personally knock your house down. The answer is that the myths are tales of their deeds before they became the Sovereigns. Reality was created by the struggle between the Progenitors. Khyber’s children rose from the darkness and seized control of the world. A band of heroes rose in this time to battle the fiends and establish the foundation for civilization. The myths are the stories of these champions… heroic deeds, vile betrayals, and more. Ultimately these champions defeated the Overlords. This left the world in need of guiding hands: and so these first heroes and villains ascended to become the Sovereigns and Six, merging with reality and rising to a higher form of existence. So there are many tales of Dol Arrah’s heroism, but no one expects her to physically manifest today; vassals know that she is ALWAYS with them, guiding the hand of every virtuous warrior.

There’s no canon list of these myths, in part because there are many different interpretations across different cultures. The common vassal traditions of the Five Nations are based on the Pyrinean Creed, developed in Sarlona before Lhazaar’s journey. But the Talentans say Bally-Nur was a clever halfling hunter, and if you go to Khazaak Draal you’ll hear stories about the Shadow never told in a human temple. The Church of the Wyrm Ascendant is a sect in the Five Nations that claims that the Sovereigns were dragons, and that the myths are based on the actual deeds of draconic champions and villains in the Age of Demons. However, this isn’t a universally accepted belief. Most myths are vague about the nature of the Sovereigns, and it’s common for them to be depicted as members of the dominant culture sharing the story. Pyrinean temples occasionally depict the Sovereigns as dragons, but this is considered to be metaphor, not literal portraits.

The point is that while the Sovereigns and Six don’t manifest in the world and can’t be proven to exist, you CAN have artifacts, locations, or deeds that are attributed to them. You can visit the Lair of the Keeper, or find Dol Arrah’s Sunblade or a cloak said to be made from the flayed skin of the Mockery. That doesn’t mean these things are actually what people say they are—but the idea of finding Dol Arrah’s sword isn’t at odds with her never manifesting today, because this was her sword before her ascension.

Of course, this doesn't apply to those who follow the Undying Court or the Cults of the Dragon Below, whose patrons can be shown to exist -- you can go into Aerenal and speak with the Undying Court, or descend into Khyber to confront the daelkyr (though you would have to be very brave and/or stupid to do so). This also doesn't apply to the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, and the Druidic traditions of Eberron. The Blood of Vol puts no faith in the gods, and those Seekers that do believe that they exist denounce them as cruel tyrants. The Path of Light is primarily a philosophy rather than a religion; the kalashtar do "worship" il-Yannah, but as a force of compassion and courage, not as a concrete deity. And the Druids of Eberron believe they draw power from the world itself.

 

[Parmandur]

The concepts of gods exists, but their existence is left an open-ended question, particularly with regards to the Sovereigns and Six, the most commonly worshiped pantheon in Eberron. The following excerpt from this blog post Keith wrote, while not technically "canon" in the strictest sense, explains the mentality and concepts that most people on Eberron hold towards the gods: Dark Six: Myths and The Fury

There are many myths of the Sovereigns and Six. Dol Arrah battling Death itself. The Mockery’s betrayal of his siblings Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn, only to be stripped of name and skin by his brother. The Keeper bargaining with Death to gain the power to steal souls. The birth of the Fury, Aureon unleashing the Shadow. We’ve only mentioned a few of these myths in canon sources, but there are hundreds within the world. Often these explain natural phenomena; the massive volcano in the Mror Holds is called the Fist of Onatar, because it’s said that Onatar smashed the mountain to create his first forge.

How can this be? Deities don’t physically manifest in Eberron. The Devourer is the storm and the raging sea, not an angry giant who’s going to personally knock your house down. The answer is that the myths are tales of their deeds before they became the Sovereigns. Reality was created by the struggle between the Progenitors. Khyber’s children rose from the darkness and seized control of the world. A band of heroes rose in this time to battle the fiends and establish the foundation for civilization. The myths are the stories of these champions… heroic deeds, vile betrayals, and more. Ultimately these champions defeated the Overlords. This left the world in need of guiding hands: and so these first heroes and villains ascended to become the Sovereigns and Six, merging with reality and rising to a higher form of existence. So there are many tales of Dol Arrah’s heroism, but no one expects her to physically manifest today; vassals know that she is ALWAYS with them, guiding the hand of every virtuous warrior.

There’s no canon list of these myths, in part because there are many different interpretations across different cultures. The common vassal traditions of the Five Nations are based on the Pyrinean Creed, developed in Sarlona before Lhazaar’s journey. But the Talentans say Bally-Nur was a clever halfling hunter, and if you go to Khazaak Draal you’ll hear stories about the Shadow never told in a human temple. The Church of the Wyrm Ascendant is a sect in the Five Nations that claims that the Sovereigns were dragons, and that the myths are based on the actual deeds of draconic champions and villains in the Age of Demons. However, this isn’t a universally accepted belief. Most myths are vague about the nature of the Sovereigns, and it’s common for them to be depicted as members of the dominant culture sharing the story. Pyrinean temples occasionally depict the Sovereigns as dragons, but this is considered to be metaphor, not literal portraits.

The point is that while the Sovereigns and Six don’t manifest in the world and can’t be proven to exist, you CAN have artifacts, locations, or deeds that are attributed to them. You can visit the Lair of the Keeper, or find Dol Arrah’s Sunblade or a cloak said to be made from the flayed skin of the Mockery. That doesn’t mean these things are actually what people say they are—but the idea of finding Dol Arrah’s sword isn’t at odds with her never manifesting today, because this was her sword before her ascension.

There's a certain room for Runequestian fun here.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

So the gods may be able to subtly influence the world, but they're just unable to manifest/interact directly?

Nah. That doesn't seem right.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

So the gods may be able to subtly influence the world, but they're just unable to manifest/interact directly?

Nah. That doesn't seem right.

The most popular in story understanding of the Sovereigns and the Six is a type of polypantheism. The gods don't have spheres of influence, the gods are their spheres of influence.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure. Why not?
Or have they influenced the world through means that mere Eberronites can't fully understand. Perhaps the Prophecy is them influencing the world. Or maybe Eberron is sealed away so that they can't meddle with it for some reason... hmmm, I'm gonna explore this idea later.

Does it say who sealed Eberron off from the rest of the Multiverse, because I can't find it.
They're not potential worshipers. They're actual worshipers. Maybe not all of them. But, if I'm reading the books right, the majority of them are.
It doesn't make sense for the infantile, petty, squabbling gods of Greyhawk and FR. But it could make sense for immortal beings who have all of eternity to do whatever they're doing. Maybe that is why Eberron is sealed away from the Multiverse. So that the Squabblers are kept out.

Or maybe it's a giant game or a puzzle set up by the gods and sealed away so that their more troublesome members can't meddle with it. Maybe THEY don't know what the Prophecy is leading towards and they created Eberron as a sort of simulation to see what can be made of it. Perhaps there are many Eberron-like sealed off worlds all running the Prophecy to see where it leads. Mayhaps that's Eberrons whole purpose.

Maybe the three Progenitor Dragons were simply the laborers/artisans who created the simulation for the gods. No one knows.

So many options. Most, I'm sure are hogwash, but...

That bolded bit is a bit of a funny 3 edged blade. While they are bound, the Overlords are effectively sleeping/in stasis/frozen in time/etc; but their power is so massive that even while sleeping it still sometimes leaks out through the cracks to influence things beyond Khyber (khyber was a progenitor and is a place). The overlords are not actively doing anything as long as the silver flame still exists to keep them bound... Their servants (lords of dust)however play games with the prophecy on geologic or even celestial/galactic timescales because they too are immortal. The existance of the Lords of Dust, much like The Chamber an open secret that ranges from "The illuminati/shadow government secretly run the world" to "$megacorp controls $TinyBananaRepublic" but to most people their existence & Influence is little more than conspiracy theories.

It's never been said who or what sealed eberron as a fact, sure there are words that imply the Ring of Sibery is is a shield; but the answer is ten billion percent "ask your GM" and if an answer is good for the story then great maybe he will even reveal one possible answer. Part of what makes Eberron great is uncertainties like this... For example, if the cause behind the day of mourning suddenly became critical to a campaign you could have five different players say that they are sure it was caused by six different things with extremely convincing supporting evidence... only to have the GM steeple their fingers and give an evil grin because they have four entirely different causes they are still mulling over & waiting to decide on.

 

[Parmandur]

That bolded bit is a bit of a funny 3 edged blade. While they are bound, the Overlords are effectively sleeping/in stasis/frozen in time/etc; but their power is so massive that even while sleeping it still sometimes leaks out through the cracks to influence things beyond Khyber (khyber was a progenitor and is a place). The overlords are not actively doing anything as long as the silver flame still exists to keep them bound... Their servants (lords of dust)however play games with the prophecy on geologic or even celestial/galactic timescales because they too are immortal. The existance of the Lords of Dust, much like The Chamber an open secret that ranges from "The illuminati/shadow government secretly run the world" to "$megacorp controls $TinyBananaRepublic" but to most people their existence & Influence is little more than conspiracy theories.

It's never been said who or what sealed eberron as a fact, sure there are words that imply the Ring of Sibery is is a shield; but the answer is ten billion percent "ask your GM" and if an answer is good for the story then great maybe he will even reveal one possible answer. Part of what makes Eberron great is uncertainties like this... For example, if the cause behind the day of mourning suddenly became critical to a campaign you could have five different players say that they are sure it was caused by six different things with extremely convincing supporting evidence... only to have the GM steeple their fingers and give an evil grin because they have four entirely different causes they are still mulling over & waiting to decide on.

I like to think the Day of Mourning was a sort "Murder on the Orient Express" scenario, caused by every faction on the planet rolling a massive 1 and/or 20 on their plans simultaneously.

 

[tetrasodium]

So the gods may be able to subtly influence the world, but they're just unable[too subtle or unwilling] to manifest/interact directly[in ways we can perceive]?

Nah. That doesn't seem right.

added a [bit 'o stuff] to your quote.

Your getting into philosophical musings there... but the bolded bit sounds a lot like something a religious scholar might say. It's not much different from "god works in mysterious ways" The fact that it sounds like something our religious scholars & figures might say makes a lot of sense because the existence (or lack of) gods in eberron isa similar unprovable state in eberron as it is for us.

 

[SkidAce]

There is no twist. Eberron elves originate from factually existing god Corellon from the Forgotten Realms setting.

Officially.

Corellon appeared in Deities and Demigods in 1980, the first Forgotten Realms supplements were not until 1986 or 87 ish?.

So officially and factually, Corellon is not a product of the FR, and cannot be used to support your thesis.