"loseing is not cost effective"

[Shroomy]

As for our Encounters, we used them too, and I got both healing inspirations from the warlord in both fights, and I still had to spend HS afterward (The first time I spent 3 after the fight and still was down 5 or 6 hp) I know our Warlock and Rouge both second winded, but I don’t know how many surges people spent after the battle.

On a side note can we make a potion of cure light that works like the Cleric utility power? That might help.

As the party's defender, you should get used to the idea of having to spend a lot of healing surges, which is why generally, you get more than the other classes; getting hit is part of your role. In our game, our fighter burns through healing surges more than the rest of us and our two leaders are often using our healing abilities to keep him up and running. In your particular case, since your compatriots have low defenses, you're going to be extra busy.

You can brew healing potions if you have the Brew Potion ritual (its a level 1 ritual), however, it doesn't work like the cure light wounds utility power, as you still need to spend a healing surge to get it to work. They're generally good in a pinch (and only cost a minor action to use), but you usually don't gain as many hit points from spending a healing surge normally.

As for your situation, well a lot of it is going to come down to learning the ins and outs of the system, as well as your PCs. There's nothing wrong with spending a daily power in your first combat, but you don't want to do it willy-nilly; don't discount at-will powers, as they're often the best option for any given situation.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Stop thinking, "what do I do now that this is 4e."

Instead think, "what do I need to do to win this battle while not using up all my powers in case there is another battle today."

It just seams that answer is very diffrent each adtion.

That's the same thing you might have done in earlier editions. If you used up all your spells too early, then you had none left and the party either retreated and rested for the night (even if it was still morning), or, if there was some sort of pressing need, went on anyway and took their chances.

My Wizard might run out of spells (OK at first level she WILL) but the fighter and Ranger would pick up the slack, now they too can 'burn out'

One of the differences in 4e is that PCs are better able to handle multiple encounters in a day, so DMs may be less forgiving of the "one fight and rest" type of approach that was often done in the past and force/encourage you to go on by using things like timing issues (the hostages will be killed if you don't get there soon), etc., etc

In all of my years of playing I never made an effort to rest after 1, 2 or even 3 encounters. We always pushed on, even if that ment the mage kept his head down. Now it just feels like we don't have a goto guy for not useing expendables. were is this edtion non spellcaster???

 

[Mort_Q]

were is this edtion non spellcaster???

There isn't one. That's a good thing.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

It might help us help you if we knew the race/class of every PC in your party. Care to elaborate?

[sblock=from my blog]
Me: Shadar Kai Swordmage
I am too young to have been in the war, but not by much. My father fought and saw action, and I always wanted to follow in his foot steps. He however had other plans. He always said I was the smart one. He had me apprentice to an archeologist named Douven Staul. I however had other plans, and ran off to look for adventure first chance I got. I fell in with a bad crowd, a small group of grifters and conmen. I stayed with them until I found a place that was just right for me, a school of blade magic.
I found school life too confining, and ran away from that too. Then one night I had a nightmare, and awoke to find a raven the size of a hafling staring at me. It flew, and I followed. It lead me back to Douven Staul’s house.
I found out there from his wife (Like a second mother to me) that he was missing. He went to the city of Winter haven, but no one has herd from him in over 2 months. She fears the worst. She knew he had sent me a letter at the school asking me to go with him, so she hoped I had news. If I hadn’t run away again, I might have been with him. I might have known.

My father is no longer alive, but he once told me if I ever have trouble, if I am in over my head, to go to find his old friends…they would help me no matter what.

[sblock=Lylandra]
Lylandra Del Morgan, level 1
Shadar-kai, Swordmage
Swordmage Aegis: Aegis of Shielding
Background: Detective

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 13, Con 15, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 12.


AC: 19 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 13
HP: 30 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Insight, Perception, Diplomacy.

FEATS
1: Devious Jaunt

POWERS
1, At-Will: Greenflame Blade
1, At-Will: Booming Blade
1, Encounter: Foesnare
1, Daily: Frost Backlash

ITEMS
Khopesh, Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Wine, Bottle
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======[/sblock]


Matt: Aasamar Invoker
A friend of my father, he is an Invoker of Bane, and he did see action in the great war. He has felt something stirring in the last 3 years, but he is unsure of what. He has traveled the country side searching for clues, always one step behind.
He fears another great evil is preparing to move. Everywhere he goes he can feel the wardrums beating.
He served under Captain Padraig (now mayor of Winter haven) during the war.
[sblock=Lucan]
Lucan The hand of Bane, level 1
Deva, Invoker
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Preservation
Background: Traveling Missionary

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 13.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 13 Fort: 12 Reflex: 14 Will: 15
HP: 23 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion, Intimidate, Arcana, Insight.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Astral Fire

POWERS
1, At-Will: Avenging Light
1, At-Will: Vanguard's Lightning
1, Encounter: Blades of Astral Fire
1, Daily: Summon Angel of Fire

ITEMS
Nail of Sealing (heroic tier), Arcane Implement, Staff, Adventurer's Kit, Residuum (Any) (30), Sanctified Incense (Religion) (10)

RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Explorer's Fire
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]


Kelly: Gnome Rouge
Syl is a thief, a con woman, a grifter, and a pain in the ass. She also was my best friend for two long years on the road. She is currently working with a new partner, a person of many skills.
[sblock=Syl]
Syl, level 1
Gnome, Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
Background: Con Artist

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 13 Fort: 10 Reflex: 15 Will: 14
HP: 22 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth, Thievery, Acrobatics, Perception, Streetwise, Bluff.

FEATS
1: Skill Focus (Bluff)

POWERS
1, At-Will: Sly Flourish
1, At-Will: Piercing Strike
1, Encounter: Fox's Gambit
1, Daily: Handspring Assault

ITEMS
Dagger (5), Fine Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Wine, Bottle, Adventurer's Kit
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]

Jon: Dwarf Warlord
Capt. Stone blood was my father’s commanding officer in the great war. He was also a friend. He and Captain Padraig (now mayor of Winter haven) had a bit of a rivalry during the war, all be it a friendly one.
He is retired and owns a small bar in the town of __________. He has no intention of comeing out of retirement either.
[sblock=Capt Stoneblood]
Capt. StoneBlood, level 1
Dwarf, Warlord
Commanding Presence: Tactical Presence
Background: Officer Who Came Out of Retirement

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 9, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 9, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 12.


AC: 17 Fort: 14 Reflex: 13 Will: 13
HP: 25 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal, Endurance, Intimidate, History.

FEATS
1: Dwarven Weapon Training

POWERS
1, At-Will: Viper's Strike
1, At-Will: Wolf Pack Tactics
1, Encounter: Myrmidon Formation
1, Daily: Concentrated Attack

ITEMS
Craghammer, Light Shield, Chainmail
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]


Jim: Half elf Warlock
No one really knows Renard. He has a quick tongue and a short fuse, but he also always seams to come out on top. He has had some questionable dealings, and hasn’t always been such a nice guy. He currently is working with Syl to fleece Money lenders.
[sblock=Renard]
Renard, level 1
Half-Elf, Warlock
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Charisma
Eldritch Pact: Fey Pact
Background: On the Run from the Devil

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 20.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18.


AC: 14 Fort: 11 Reflex: 13 Will: 16
HP: 25 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Insight, Streetwise, Bluff.

FEATS
1: Sacrifice to Caiphon

POWERS
1, Encounter: Burning Spray
1, Encounter: Witchfire
1, Daily: Crown of Stars

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Dagger, Arcane Implement, Rod, Pouch, Belt (empty), Adventurer's Kit, Alchemist's Fire (level 1), Scroll of Amanuensis, Alchemical Reagents (Arcana) (20)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]

Ok, so I don't know all the backgrounds of everybody, but I do know that Jim let it slip that Renard lived in winterhaven for a while, this could be fun...
Also before people ask, yes some party members have no armor, it wont last, but it was a choice to start that way.
[/sblock]

You can brew healing potions if you have the Brew Potion ritual (its a level 1 ritual), however, it doesn't work like the cure light wounds utility power, as you still need to spend a healing surge to get it to work. They're generally good in a pinch (and only cost a minor action to use), but you usually don't gain as many hit points from spending a healing surge normally.

yea I know healing potions, Iwas hoping for more

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

There isn't one. That's a good thing.

Maybe, it is both good and bad.

Good: no more “Who need’s a fighter I am a 12th level wizard”
No more “Anything you can do I can do better” at high level

Bad: at low level when those fighters and rangers shined, it feels like it is harder (I may be wrong remember this is my first game of first campaign)

 

[Nail]

Ah. I see.

Allow me to shorten that <chuckle>:

Shadar Kai Swordmage
Aasamar Invoker
Gnome Rouge <sic>
Dwarf Warlord
Half elf Warlock


...much better.

You've got 1 defender, 1 leader, 2 strikers, and a controller. A good balance! The 4e PC optimization board approves.

Now: You've got to shake this feeling you have that without a Daily, your PC is worthless. She's not! A Daily is just one power, out of many you get to use. Of course you can push on after you use your Daily powers; what you need to pay attention to is Healing Surges. Once everyone's down to just a few (or if your Swordmage has only a few), your party should rest.

What 4e does well - very well, in fact - is allow PCs to gather themselves together after an encounter and push on. 3e never could do this well, as the most effective strategy for the spell casters was to go Nova. In 4e, going Nova is nearly impossible.

It sounds to me as if you're learning the 4e system fine. Don't sweat it.

 

[Nail]

Bad: at low level when those fighters and rangers shined, it feels like it is harder (I may be wrong remember this is my first game of first campaign.)

It may be because yer fightin' kobolds. From earlier editions we know that kobolds drop after one hit, even a weak one.

In 4e, that's not th' case. ...and I'm not sure that's a Good Thing(tm).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, for their level kobolds are one of the more troublesome monsters. Shifty really does cause people a lot of trouble! lol.

4e is a LOT more tactical than earlier editions. In some ways that's good, but it can be troublesome for a group of players that are used to sort of just 'pressing the buttons' on their characters in combat. It also relies a LOT more on combining the actions of different characters together to make you effective. It may be that your party hasn't yet figured out the best way to do that, and/or some of the players just aren't of that mindset. Personally I think they may have overdone it a bit, it can be pretty hard to play 4e if you just aren't interested in or particularly talented at tactics.

As for the problem of going on without dailies. It CAN be a problem. You could run into 2-3 ordinary difficulty encounters and have no problems. You could even beat some harder encounters with good tactics and maybe a bit of luck without expending dailies. The real problem comes when you get into that crunch encounter where around 4-5 rounds in you start to realize you're in over your head. Normally you'd burn your dailies, an AP, an encounter power, and either cut the enemy down to size quick or create a situation where you can successfully disengage. Without the dailies though it can simply turn into a TPK pretty quick.

Not that any of this is REALLY fundamentally different from 1e/2e low level play (never did play 3e) where once the wiz and cleric burn their spells things get risky too. I think you have to look at your daily as being like the 'best spell you have' on a low level magic user in 1e. You may have others, but the 'get out of jail free' card is played. Remember, in 4e sometimes even having full dailies isn't enough!

 

[MacMathan]

That combo of classes looks good to me.

With 2 strikers your at-will damage should be pretty good especially if you can set up flanks for the Rogue.

Don't worry and feel free to experiment until you all get the feel of your classes. After that work on synergies between team members, more than any other edition 4e encourages them.

In my opinion 4e is pretty good as far a not killing first level characters for one bad roll or decision.

Main thing is, as always, have fun while doing it

 

[shadowoflameth]

I would not worry too much about uncorking the big guns at 1st level. You will tend to use a lot of your very limited resources at the first few levels especially in balanced encounters. Remember that most monsters don't heal, and that if you blow away a bunch of kobolds with a daily attack, you will have to rely on encounters and at-wills later, but you probably saved yourself some surges, and got some gold. At firt level, even the mundane equipment that you acquire can have value. And remember, you arent going to run into Orcus at 1st level, more like an ogre among a buch of goblins for a big battle.

An example from our game:

The party's biggest strength is in coordinating your attacks. In our campaign,the party is just shy of 11th, and made an easy encounter of a solo 17th level lurker. (a shade templated vampire lord). He had two potent abilities teleport 20 and dominate with +19 vs. will. Both of these were stymied after the first round by the rogue using encounter powers to blind him, (granting combat advantage), and the wizard using fire wall. Once in the fire wall, the vampire couldn't teleport without line of sight, and the warlord used a daily to stop movement. The sword mage used elemental foible to make him vulnerable to fire, and after that first round, it was more of the same, he's blinded, or knocked prone, or dazed, or whatever, over and over. The only way he had to get out of the fire was in gaseous form, and even then , he got pummeled by ongoing effects, and got pounded to dust as soon as he came out in normal form to attack again. By that time, the party was down to at-wills, but he was vulnerable to fire at that point, couln't hardly move except to teleort (recharge), and he was having some aweful luck getting dominate to recharge. And so it went. at that stage even with at will attacks, his hit points went down very quickly, and he was bloodied before being able to hurt anyone in the party even once. He never got a single blood drain done. This was an opponent that no two or three members of tha party would have had a chance against, but together it was practically free.