D&D 5E Lost Mines of Phandelver: Straight to Cragmaw Castle?
Werebat
Explorer
Lost Mine of Phandelver book, page 8, "What the Goblins Know" sidebar AND I QUOTE: "The goblins can provide basic directions to Cragmaw Castle. It's about twenty miles northeast of the Cragmaw hideout, in Neverwinter Wood."
Given that they knew the general location ("hex") that the castle was in, I took a page from the Kingmaker rules and glossed over the hexploration, assuming that the PCs would inevitably find the BIG HONKIN' CASTLE RUINS after some time exploring the forest -- especially given the presence of two woodsman types in the party.
However, I'll admit that it WOULD have been a good time to throw some more encounters at the PCs in an effort to get them to level 3.
Then again, it turns out 6 level 2 PCs shouldn't have much trouble. These guys are a pretty bright group overall, so I think they should be fine.
When my PC's captured a Goblin and asked for directions to Cragmaw Castle I used the example used by WOTC when they played through the first session of LMoP (see youtube video)
The Goblin told him the Castle was in the direction somewhere between where the sun comes up and where it never shines (N-E) and half-day to a day of travel.
I told them that trying to go there could cause them to be lost and wander around a bit before finding the castle. They could encounter all sorts of danger before they find it (random encounters)
This seems to have scared them out of looking for the place at the moment.
They captured the fainted Goblin in the Redbrand Hideout and if asked about it then it will tell them of Goblin patrols in the area that they can track.
Werebat
Explorer
In retrospect, I think that would be the BETTER way to run it, only because it encourages the party to play about with the other quests available in Phandalin instead of rushing off to rescue the captured dwarf. As it stands, one of the PCs is a cousin of Gundren's, and really pushed to head right to the castle to rescue him ASAP. The knew where the Redbrand hideout was, and they didn't even bother checking it out in their haste to get to Cragmaw Castle.
But that's not really what the adventure tells the DM to do, or even hints that he SHOULD do. The bard negotiated extensively with Yeemik and bargained the location of Cragmaw Castle as part of the party's fee for handling the interloping bugbear. That's just how it played out.
You are correct, the adventure mentions that players might want to go to Cragmaw Castle right away.
P.12
"It's also possible that players might decide to do something different, such as striking out in search of Cragmaw Castle (in part 3 of the adventure)
If that's the case, skip ahead to that section."
I was just happy that they headed back to Phandalin with the injured Sildar and the supplies.
(How did your group handle those 2 things btw?)
Not to get them at a higher level before they headed out to Cragmaw Castle.
Even after clearing the Redbrand Hideout they are still lvl 2.
As a new DM with new players I felt safer having them play through the "easier" Redbrand part first. They had to fight harder than the previous sessions and are beginning to realise that they are vulnerable and can die. At certain times 2 of them went down and 1 player had to make death saves for the first time.
Heading to the castle first could have been a death trap for them.
Now I'm sure they'll be much more careful.
Another thing is that at the time I didn't really know how to correctly handle the "looking for a castle without getting lost" with survival rolls etc.
In your case it was good roleplaying on the part of the dwarf cousin player
I really like the tie-ins to the story.
As I read it the adventure was written without taking the pregen backgrounds and goals into account though. It feels like those were added later.
For example, I suggest taking a look at the rogue pregen background which has a history with the Redbrands. There was a topic here about how you can make that work.
Same for the Human who wants to chase off the dragon.
Werebat
Explorer
Nemio, I agree, the pregens look like they were tacked on after the fact. My players made their own characters but I tried to incorporate the pregen backgrounds into them where possible. So, for example, the gnome rogue was a member of a Redbrands who wants to see them taken down. Well, she was SUPPOSED to -- in the end she actively discouraged the party from going to their hideout, although she did tell Sildar that the guy he was looking for was really their leader. Thanks to a poor Persuasion roll, he didn't believe her.
The human wanting to kill the dragon background was converted IMC to the Uthgardt cleric having a vision from his deity that a "powerful foe" was somewhere in the area of Phandalin, and he would know it when he saw it.
My group escorted Sildar and the cart to Phandelver, and spent an afternoon and evening gathering info around the town, only to ultimately decide to ditch all of those side quests in favor of heading to Cragmaw.
The human wanting to kill the dragon background was converted IMC to the Uthgardt cleric having a vision from his deity that a "powerful foe" was somewhere in the area of Phandalin, and he would know it when he saw it.
My group escorted Sildar and the cart to Phandelver, and spent an afternoon and evening gathering info around the town, only to ultimately decide to ditch all of those side quests in favor of heading to Cragmaw.
Werebat
Explorer
So as a sort of update -- the party got their butts handed to them in the fight at Cragmaw Castle. After alerting the front door guards to their presence, and retreating just long enough for those goblins to spread word around the castle that someone had just approached the front door, they came back and scouted around the whole structure -- being noticed several times by goblins and hobgoblins who were now alert enough to be actually manning their posts and looking for them. These fired a few potshots at the party but didn't cause serious damage.
Eventually the party (correctly) assumed that a good place to breach the castle would be at the ruined section on its Northern side, and entered there. They were fired on as they approached by goblinoid guards, who quickly attacked them and sent runners to go alert everyone else. This resulted in a grand battle at that section of the castle, where the party encountered most of the sentient inhabitants of the castle in waves. They dispatched the first couple of hobgoblins before they were even able to attack, but they soon learned the nastiness of the hobgoblin special ability where they work in tandem to do more damage when they attack.
In the end I think they killed three hobgoblins, King Grol's wolf, and (miraculously, thanks to a couple of crossbow crits from the rogue) the "drow" emissary of the Black Spider. In exchange, the bard and cleric both fell in combat as the rest of the party realized they would soon follow if they didn't retreat.
We rolled afterwards and learned that the bard died, while the cleric technically lived unless the goblins killed him. The player decided to roll a new character so I'm not sure whether I should have him killed or not.
What was left of the party ran back to Phandalin, pursued by a trio of goblins on wolves who attacked them before they could rest. Luckily for them, one of the new PCs (dragonblooded paladin) happened to be nearby scouting the forest for a green dragon he'd heard was in the area, heard the commotion, and intervened.
The party is now level 3, is in Phandelver, and has decided to take on the Redbrands before reconsidering Cragmaw Castle. The dwarf wizard who is cousins of Gundren Rockseeker decided to seek out Gundren's brothers, giving the party the slip as he has a hunch about where they are but doesn't want to reveal the location of their last known claim (his player won't be with us for a few months).
So we're now down to five PCs of third level assaulting the Redbrands. Since one of the PCs (the rogue) was once a member of the Redbrands (backstory ripped from the pregen character), this should be fairly easy for them as she has simply led them through the secret tunnel, past the Nothic, and directly to Glasstaff's chambers without having alerted anyone.
Our next session will feature that battle.
Eventually the party (correctly) assumed that a good place to breach the castle would be at the ruined section on its Northern side, and entered there. They were fired on as they approached by goblinoid guards, who quickly attacked them and sent runners to go alert everyone else. This resulted in a grand battle at that section of the castle, where the party encountered most of the sentient inhabitants of the castle in waves. They dispatched the first couple of hobgoblins before they were even able to attack, but they soon learned the nastiness of the hobgoblin special ability where they work in tandem to do more damage when they attack.
In the end I think they killed three hobgoblins, King Grol's wolf, and (miraculously, thanks to a couple of crossbow crits from the rogue) the "drow" emissary of the Black Spider. In exchange, the bard and cleric both fell in combat as the rest of the party realized they would soon follow if they didn't retreat.
We rolled afterwards and learned that the bard died, while the cleric technically lived unless the goblins killed him. The player decided to roll a new character so I'm not sure whether I should have him killed or not.
What was left of the party ran back to Phandalin, pursued by a trio of goblins on wolves who attacked them before they could rest. Luckily for them, one of the new PCs (dragonblooded paladin) happened to be nearby scouting the forest for a green dragon he'd heard was in the area, heard the commotion, and intervened.
The party is now level 3, is in Phandelver, and has decided to take on the Redbrands before reconsidering Cragmaw Castle. The dwarf wizard who is cousins of Gundren Rockseeker decided to seek out Gundren's brothers, giving the party the slip as he has a hunch about where they are but doesn't want to reveal the location of their last known claim (his player won't be with us for a few months).
So we're now down to five PCs of third level assaulting the Redbrands. Since one of the PCs (the rogue) was once a member of the Redbrands (backstory ripped from the pregen character), this should be fairly easy for them as she has simply led them through the secret tunnel, past the Nothic, and directly to Glasstaff's chambers without having alerted anyone.
Our next session will feature that battle.
Thanks for the update
I have a session coming up in 2 days where my 5 to 6 lvl 2 players will probably head over to Cragmaw Castle.
Depending on their actions it might get difficult.
Especially since last session Glasstaff got away from them in the Redbrand Hideout and will be heading there too.
He will first be making a stop at the Goblin Cave from the first session where he will find Yeemik and a few Goblins that the party negotiated with to free Sildar in session 1.
How did you handle the conversation between King Groll & the Drow that they could overhear?
I suppose due to the battle it didn't take place.
Did they threaten to kill the unconscious Gundren?
What will happen with Gundren and the map now?
How will the Black Spider respond if his Drow doesn't return?
Will he send the second doppelganger to investigate?
It's a bit scary to improvise and deviate from the planned story but I think I'm managing.
I try to think about some possible direction things can go in but realize you can never think of everything.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
The adventure definitely HINTS that it should be done this way. It says multiple times that the PCs will be in town searching for the location of Cragmaw Castle. When I read it the first time, it confused me...why would they be in town looking for the location of the castle when the goblins in the cave know where it is and they likely got that information from them? It wasn't until then that I reexamined the section on what the goblins know and I realized that it was meant to be vague on purpose. They could tell the PCs approximately where it was but they might wander a forest that size for days or even weeks without knowing its exact location.
Which is why the adventure seems to point to the logical conclusion that the PCs go to town to look for a guide who knows the exact location of the castle. Which no one does except for the Hobgoblins in the Redbrand Hideout or the Druid who is in in Thundertree. It's likely that the Hobgoblins die or at least refuse to tell the location. Which just means they'll skip Thundertree. The Goblin(Droop) who is with the Hobgoblins only remembers vague direction the same as the Goblins from the cave. Asking around town just gets you pointed toward the Druid by a couple of people.
So, the logical progression of the adventure is: Cave>Find out they need to go to the castle but only find out vague directions>Phandalin>Search for a guide who knows the area well enough to find the exact location of the castle>Get caught up with the Redbrands whether they want to or not as the Redbrands will attack them>Redbrand Hideout>Go on side quests for people in town who beg them to help OR Go to Thundertree to find the Druid who can guide them(or because one of the premade characters has a deathwish and wants to kill the dragon) OR Go to Cragmaw Castle (Any or all of the 3 in any order they want)>Wave Echo Cave
Charles Rampant
Explorer
It sounds like an intense and entertaining session for your party there, [MENTION=40158]Werebat[/MENTION]. The party losing two characters is grim, though D&D 5e before 4th level is pretty grim all over really, but it sounds like the players didn't lose heart. I especially liked that they fled, were able to cut down their pursuers, and are now moving forward with a plan to approach the same stronghold from a position of strength. That is really nice, and I am sure will give the players lots of roleplaying material to work with. I'm sure that the campaign will be stronger for it!
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