[LotR] Toy Biz's Balrog toy revealed!

[Wolfspider]

That's one of the reasons why you don't see giant insects...

Except in D&D

 

[Numion]

Bumblebees?

If a normal fly grew to let's say horse size, and it weight grew up in the same proportion, it couldn't even stand on its legs... Insect can fly because they are really tiny, it they were bigger the weight of their chitinous exoskeleton would pin them on the ground...

That's one of the reasons why you don't see giant insects...

Thats right. Creatures weight is proportional to the cube of it's length while the lifting capacity of it's wings is ~ length squared.

Same theory also speaks against giant robots.

 

[Horacio]

Thats right. Creatures weight is proportional to the cube of it's length while the lifting capacity of it's wings is ~ length squared.

Same theory also speaks against giant robots.

Thanks, Numion!

If you want to use physics, you must use it accurately... or drop it completly

Dragons fly by DM fiat, no by physics. So Barlogs can do it too

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Bumblebees?

If a normal fly grew to let's say horse size, and it weight grew up in the same proportion, it couldn't even stand on its legs... Insect can fly because they are really tiny, it they were bigger the weight of their chitinous exoskeleton would pin them on the ground...

That's one of the reasons why you don't see giant insects...

You seem to have missed the point.

Giant insects are neither here nor there. For many years people said that (regular-sized) bumblebee flight should be impossible, considering the bees' anatomy. Well, this was faulty reasoning at best for a few reasons and the thinking regarding this, amongst people in the know, has changed.

Quoting from http://rotor.fb12.tu-berlin.de/technik/bumblebee.html

The key to understanding bumblebee (and dragonfly and butterfly and mosquito) aerodynamics is in understanding bumblebee airfoils. If you imagine a bee's wing, with its veins and undulations in cross section, the first question that comes to mind is, "why would anyone pick such a horrible airfoil and try to fly with it?" Of course, individual bumblebees have little choice in the matter, but mother nature *could* have chosen another design.
So why isn't there a bee-sized insect out there with a NACA 64-series airfoil?
...
The answer is scaling. At the sizes of bee wings, the bumpy-looking wing cross section is actually a very efficient airfoil. The key is to recognize that at bee dimensions, Reynolds numbers are low! Many of the fluid dynamic assumptions students use in the study of airfoils do not hold up (since few airliners are built to bee dimensions, the assumptions are still fine for most of us aerocritters). Once you have a higher Cl airfoil, the L/D goes up and power requirements go down.

And, voila! the bee flies!

Perhaps it is the same with dragons, they are simply misunderstood. Birds fly, planes fly, blimps fly, and yes, even bumblebees fly, though not all of them do it in exactly the same way. Sometimes you have to look beyond wings and weight, sometimes there are other factors.
Having said ALL of that though, quite frankly, I think applying science to Dragons is, more often than not, pure drudgery and a waste of time.
Dragons, as far as I know, are a flight of fancy, and that's good enough for me.

Finally, For some interesting theories on dragon flight, find the book The Flight of Dragons by Peter Dickenson.

 

[Horacio]

Finally, For some interesting theories on dragon flight, find the book The Flight of Dragons by Peter Dickenson.

I already know the book

IIRC, dragons fly because they're filled with lighter than air gas, because they eat calcareous stones, and their digestions transforms them in gas. And they breath fire because they spit the gas and ignite it.

But then again, they don't use truely their wings to fly...

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

I already know the book

IIRC, dragons fly because they're filled with lighter than air gas, because they eat calcareous stones, and their digestions transforms them in gas. And they breath fire because they spit the gas and ignite it.

But then again, they don't use truely their wings to fly...

Something like that. I don't know how that would work for some of the non-firebreathing types though.
Ever seen the movie? It's pretty good. I'm waiting for it to come out on dvd.

 

[Uller]

I think this whole arguement about Balrogs with or without wings is moot. It is fantasy...each reader pictures stuff diffently and since no definitive description appears in the text as to exactly how they appear, the reader can picture the Balrog however he wants(within reason, of course).

All we really know is that they are creaturs of shadow and flame and their "shadow" can take on various shapes.

I picture Balrogs(and in D&D, demons, devils celstials and many other outsiders) as metaphorical creatures. They appear to the viewer how the creature(or its master) wants (it) to look. A Balrog(or "Balor") wants to appear fearsome, huge and nightmarishly evil. So he is huge, beastial, wreathed in flame and smoke and has wings or wing-like appendages to make him appear more fearsome and give him limited flight. Being made of flame and shadow makes one's shape a bit...ambiguous. A fire in a fire place might one moment be a great roaring inferno and a smoldering pile of coals at a later time. A Solar wants to appear to be the ultimate in Good: Shining, beautiful and terrible at the same time.

This fits with my reading of FotR. In Moria, the creature appeared huge and winged when it came to a fight(or needed to leap a chasm), yet it was able to fit through small-ish doors as it chased the Fellowship. There is probably a limit to how large or small they can make themselves and their weight probalby never changed. While they could use their "wings" to gain a bit of temporary buoyancy, they couldn't really fly.

This is how I see a Balrog...YMMV(and unless Mr. Tolkien posts here to set us all straight, there will never be a real answer).

 

[Dispater]

Well, according to the books Gandalf made the balrog fall twice, once in the depths of Moria, and once down from the mountains, where it was destroyed. Logically it must have been unable to fly, at least at the time.

 

[Uller]

...and logically, a Balrog(winged or no) would have to be enormous to bring down the side of a mountain if it merely fell. Obviously it was cast down with extreme force(or it was huge...yet it could fit through doorways that only allowed one orc at a time). Not defending the wings here...just pointing out that "logic" does not necessarily apply when discussing a battle between two very powerful Miar.