(LOTR, TTT) An Arwen Poll

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think Peter Jackson brought to the screen the essence of the meaningless horror of war and battle (at least, I think of war as being horrible, and if I was a soldier being ordered to charge a machine gun nest I'd think that pretty meaningless.)

If Arwen had gone to Helm's Deep, she most certainly would have made no difference in the battle.
Even all of Aragorn and Gimli's heroics meant nothing, in the end.

What mattered is that the Rohirrim had a lot of bodies and horses to throw at the enemy, that military discipline and training made of them an effective fighting force, and that the Ents and Huorns (not shown) came with overwhelming strength against the Uruk-Hai.
But that did not help the children of Rohan, sent to die on the Deeping Wall, blown up by Saruman's black powder, hacked apart by Uruk-Hai swords, or shot down with arrows.
That didn't help the warriors of Rohan, thrust into a battle they did not expect, did not probably want, and certainly they wanted to live so they could return to their wives and children and lives ... for all too many of them, that would never happen.

And, of course, the arrival of two large, highly disciplined, and well equipped elven hosts helped just a wee bit.

The death of Haldir was painful (as Peter Jackson meant it to be.)
I would actually accuse the elves of altruism, in sending forces to aid the Rohirrim. An altruism that cost them many elven lives - but they, of all people, knew very well what marching into war meant. They did not think of war as glorious or exciting.

(shrugs)

If Eowyn fought to save the civilians in the Glittering Caves, after the Deeping Wall fell and the enemy rushed in to slaughter Rohan's women and children (and I hear just this was filmed by Peter Jackson), then Eowyn was just about as heroic as I think it gets, in a battle like this one.

 

[WizarDru]

if she is just an average elf it only shows that the best a man can be is still far inferior to the elves. Not the kind of message I want to hear. Why waste time with the men at all when the elves could toast sauron by themselves.) Why drag all of these questions up when you can just leave her out of combat altogether like Tolkien intended.

Heh. Maybe you hadn't noticed, but as far as I can tell, in Tolkien's world, the best man IS generally inferior to the average elf. They are The First and men are the Followers, after all. Men come out the winners, but mostly because the elves, many grown weary, retire from the world, and leave it to us. They are immortal, possessed of a litany of qualities that makes them generally superior to us, and the greatest of Men, Aragorn, has elf-blood in him. Technically, Aragorn is what? A quarter-elf, possesed of the blood of old Numenor? Tolkien made it pretty clear that elves WERE superior...but that Men had their own blessings, if they were wise enough to see them.

As for toasting Sauron...only Sauron himself does that, indirectly. The whole point is that the hobbits, the weakest physically, but strongest in will and spirit, are the ones who carry the day. The mightiest of men and elves cannot bear the one Ring, for fear of it's corruptive influence, but simple Frodo bears it all the way to Mordor, over a period of months. Regardless of how it actually ends, the point remains that without the hobbits, everything Aragorn, Elrond and Gandalf accomplish is for naught. Two hobbits (or three, really) are responsible for using Sauron's own weapon against him, and ending his threat forever.

 

[Wolf72]

reading this poll has [edit: b/c I forgot how to spell] exceeded my allotted attention span, alas I cannot participate.

*sorry Edena ... that was just way to long! *

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Heh. Maybe you hadn't noticed, but as far as I can tell, in Tolkien's world, the best man IS generally inferior to the average elf. They are The First and men are the Followers, after all. Men come out the winners, but mostly because the elves, many grown weary, retire from the world, and leave it to us. They are immortal, possessed of a litany of qualities that makes them generally superior to us, and the greatest of Men, Aragorn, has elf-blood in him. Technically, Aragorn is what? A quarter-elf, possesed of the blood of old Numenor? Tolkien made it pretty clear that elves WERE superior...but that Men had their own blessings, if they were wise enough to see them.

Yes the elves were first race, but Tolkien did not consider men to be second to them. When Eru (The one god) created the world for the Valar, the Valar (What are considered the gods) knew of its fate and the coming of the First race (the Elves). Eru though wanted them to be surprised so he also created men who the Valar would not know of or about. Yes men are not immortal, but that is not all there is to being poweful. Tolkien intentionaly left man an enigma that was capable of both greatness and weakness.

The average human is certainly weaker than the average elf, but Aragorn is not an average man. The best of humans though are better than the average elf. Beren was able to retreive a Silmaril from Melkor's crown, a task that the elves had fought many wars over and always failed. Bard killed Smaug, if the average elf was able to kill a dragon they would have been extinct long ago. Further proving this point Glaurung the dragon led the army that destroyed Nargothrond, It took the great Turin to defeat him. It is only the best of both Men and Elves that can kill a dragon. It was Isildur who cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and it was Aragorn (as Isildur's hier) who inspired enough fear in Sauron to launch his attack early before he was ready. Galadriel feared Sauron's gaze, while Aragorn not only looked into Sauron's Eye but ripped the Palantir from his power. It is as much Beren's blood as the elf blood in his viens that make Aragorn as powerful as he is. No in Tolkiens world the best of men are not only more powerful than the average elf, they are equals to the greatest of them.

As for toasting Sauron...only Sauron himself does that, indirectly. The whole point is that the hobbits, the weakest physically, but strongest in will and spirit, are the ones who carry the day. The mightiest of men and elves cannot bear the one Ring, for fear of it's corruptive influence, but simple Frodo bears it all the way to Mordor, over a period of months. Regardless of how it actually ends, the point remains that without the hobbits, everything Aragorn, Elrond and Gandalf accomplish is for naught. Two hobbits (or three, really) are responsible for using Sauron's own weapon against him, and ending his threat forever.

I do not dispute what tolkien was showing in the destruction of the ring and the role of the hobbits. My point was that if the average elf is more powerful than the greatest of men then the elves surely would be able to stop the armies of Mordor without a problem. It is not that I believe this, but if PJ makes Arwen who has shown no fighting skills or even alluded to them an equal to Aragorn on the field of battle, then questions about how powerful Aragorn really is are raised. No I believe that Aragorn and men are powerful and that it is this power that saves Gondor (at least from the first asault). Yes it is only by the mental strength of a couple of halflings that Sauron himself is overthrown.

[Edit: Spelling]

 

[Bob Aberton]

Arwen is not "an average elf," though.

She is the Evenstar of her people. She has all the power of her ancestor, Luthien, who actually sung the Dark Lord to sleep .

Now, she may not be as skilled as, say, Aragorn in battle. She may not be as skilled in magic as Galadriel.

But she is, to all intents and purposes, on par with Luthien. Thus, she has the strength of will and the, for lack of a better phrase, radiance of character, of one of the greatest elves of the Second Age (or was it First? Hmm...).

So no, she's not an "average" elf.

And Elrond may protect her like a Victorian father, but Arwen WENT AGAINST HIS WISHES and went (or so we assume) to the Paths of the Dead to be with Aragorn.

He didn't say, "Okay, Arwen, you can go with Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead and the Battle of Pelennor Field, I don't mind."

He said "Don't go to be with Aragorn. Go to Valinor, and forget Aragorn." But she (probably) instead of going to the Havens with the other lantern-bearing elves, instead took a sharp right turn and went to the Paths of the Dead.

 

[reapersaurus]

you forgot the option in your poll of:

0 why sweat it so much?
The movie's are NOT the books, they are an incredible fantasy story put to film with a classic inspiration.
As long as the Arwen/Aragorn relationship works onscreen, who gives a dittle about what was put on paper 50 years ago?

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Yes she is not an average elf in many respects, but when it comes to fighting she probably is (Tolkien very much segregated the sexes and female elves were never great fighters, even Luthien). Using PJ's own interpretation with Elrond keeping her sheltered, do you think she was ever in danger at any point in her life? Now she runs off with Aragorn to fight a war. Sure she can handle the paths of the Dead, since that is a mental challenge. What comes after though is several battles. Aragorn knows this which is why he chooses the path that he does. If she is a good enough fighter to not cause Aragorn (the greatest human fighter of this era) to worry about her in addition to all her other qualities she would be the greatest elf ever. If a sheltered elf is as good as Aragorn then battle hardend elves should kick his but, leaving Aragorn lessened as a hero. If she was this great of a fighter why is Elrond trying to send her off? If with her sheltered life she is as good as Aragorn in battle why is Elrond worried. Elves are not stupid, she would be leading an army herself (unless of course you believe that Elrond is so self centered that he puts the life of his own daughter over the safety of all Middle-Earth). Again raising the question then if she is the greatest elf ever why wasn't she part of the fellowship since that mission is the most important in history. You are already entrusting the ring to a bunch of idiot halflings (tell me you trusted Merry and Pippen at this point) why are you then allowing them to travel without the best escort you can provide. Once again I say wouldn't it be better to keep her out of battle altogether and not have all of these questions raised.

 

[Darkness]

Re: A request to the Moderators

A request to the Moderators:

Could you make this poll multiple choice?
I am sure most people have several replies to the poll above. I certainly do.

Changing the type of a poll (single choice/multiple choice) is impossible AFAIK. Sorry.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Concerning Arwen

If Tolkien had seen the replacement of Glorfindel with Arwen, he would have had some strong things to say on the matter, in my opinion.

The Arwen of the books was a strictly sheltered woman.
She is found travelling outside of Rivendell only rarely, and then only to safe places such as Lothlorien, and then only under heavy guard.
Indeed, if you look at the histories in the Appendixes, Elrond finally brought her back (whether she wished it or not) from Lothlorien to Rivendell.
This happened was just prior to the War of the Ring, because Elrond saw that the lands from the Misty Mountains east were becoming perilous, and he refused to leave his daughter even in the sheltered safety of Lothlorien.

There is no way, not even theoretically, that the book Elrond would permit (yes, I said permit, folks) his one and only daughter to go out into danger, if Elrond knew there to be an active danger (such as an orc band on the hunt, or knowledge that the Redhorn Pass was held in force by an enemy.)
Elrond lost his wife, Celebrian, that way. Even though she was guarded. Her guard was slain, and she was captured ... by the orcs.
I leave it to your imagination how the orcs of the Misty Mountains treated their elven captive. Tolkien stated it was grim. After long months of torture, Celebrian was finally rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but she was so ruined, so permanently damaged in body and mind, that she went over sea to Valinor (the one place where she could be healed.)
She went over sea, leaving her husband and children to remain alone in Rivendell, and they were the first - I am betting that, at least - to support her departure.
After this, Elrond lived alone, without his wife, but with graphic descriptions of what state the orcs left her in, compliments of what he was told by Elladan and Elrohir, and by what he himself saw with his own eyes.
This, is an elf who would allow his daughter to walk into the same peril?

If Elrond would not have permitted Arwen to go into danger, then he most CERTAINLY WOULD NOT have allowed her to go into danger ALONE.
And this gets to my point.

In the film, Arwen goes out, alone. Into danger. Into supreme danger.
Arwen is riding alone against the Nine, the greatest of all of Sauron's servants, with the expectation of having to do actual battle with them.
Glorfindel, in the books, did do such battle, and drove the Black Riders from the Bridge of Mitheidel. He then pursued these Nazgul westward. One must assume Arwen did the same thing, since the Bridge was the only way into the Lone Lands from the Angle (see the geography maps of Eriador.)

It is not a matter of the book Elrond sitting at home, outraged that his daughter would disobey him, or go running off on a rash mission.
The book Elrond would have fainted. He would, after waking, have all but killed those who let Arwen go (or who weren't watching out for her.) Elrond would have leaped onto his horse, Glorfindel and Erestor and his sons and many others with him, and gone storming out of Rivendell after Arwen - not to punish her, but to save her life.
Then, after saving her life, he would have locked her up in Rivendell with the biggest and strongest chains the elves could forge.

The Purists will agree with me, I think.

So yeah, Peter Jackson's Arwen is as different from the book Arwen as, say, Peter Jackson's Faramir is different from the book Faramir. Or his Treebeard from the book Treebeard.

Those who are outraged by Elrond behaving thus, must live with the fact that Tolkien wrote it that way, and that is that (Elrond spoke: My daughter shall marry no Man who is less than both King of Gondor and Arnor.)

My poll is not about the book Arwen. It is about the film Arwen, since there is such a major difference.
Someone said: why all the fuss and bother? Well, because I've spent $40 on tickets, to go see TTT a number of times, out in the freezing cold, that's why!
And I like to discuss Tolkien.

You know, some people keep comparing Arwen to a young lady, or a girl barely grown.
It is more appropriate to think of her as a grandmother. Think of the elderly woman in the Wendys Commercials (WHERE'S THE BEEF? WHERE'S THE BEEF?) Yet Arwen makes that woman look like a child. Arwen is three thousand years old!
If a human woman lived to that age, and decayed in the normal way while alive, that human woman would look slightly worse than Gollum does. She might even beat out the spectres of the Dead Marshes.

In other words, imagine Aragorn, a hot-blooded young man, going up to a granny (WHERE'S THE BEEF?) and saying: I love you! Let's get married!
To some extent, that is exactly what Aragorn did. He went to a very old woman, and said: I love you! Let's get married!

Of course, humor aside, there are mitigating circumstances because Arwen is elvish - yet I must wonder how any girl, elven or not elven, could live for 3,000 years as a chaste maiden, and remain sane?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

On the poll:


Arwen, should be portrayed as a warrior of great ability and stature, and have a much greater film role. 1 3.12%


...

I can see that someone out there is far more pro Warrior-Arwen than I ever was. I wonder who it is?