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D&D 5E Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre

Tony Vargas

Legend
So my question for you is, how often do you see players declare multi-round actions when you're playing with cyclic initiative?
When I think about it, choosing to attack an enemy you're unlikely to kill in one go is starting a multi-round action. I see players begin multi-round actions all the time. Literally 'declare' them, not so much, since there's no need to commit to the rest of the action. (Indeed, some players like to be cagey. That may be something like what you're getting at. If there's no need to declare an action in advance, players can decline to telegraph what they're trying to do, which is ultimately un-helpful in a very DM-dependent system.) For that matter, I rarely see players declare their whole round of move/action/etc up-front, but rather go through it in order.

Though it's pretty common to coordinate actions - if you do that, this round, I'll do this other thing next round, or I'll wait to do something because you're going to do something else this round. That kinda stuff.

It's more common the longer the fights tend to be, too. Last session was a huge battle that went many rounds and there were more things going on that took multiple rounds to unfold.

I don't use cyclic initiative, and I see multi-round declarations relatively frequently, maybe once every couple of sessions(?).
Do you hold a player to a multi-round declaration until it's completed, or let them give up on 'em and try something else?

Because if you don't hold them to it, it's not really a multi-round declaration, just starting the multi-round task...

I see improvised or non-PHB-standard action declarations more often than that, several times a session I guess.
My experience with improvised actions is that it's driven more by the range of PC abilities than by the initiative system. If a PC can do something a little unusual, players look for creative ways to leverage that.

My hypothesis is that people using vanilla PHB rules will see both kinds of actions less frequently than that on average.
I can see formal 'declaration' of multi-round actions happening less often in the turn-based system. I don't see it impacting improv so much, though.

BTW, with the Bob example, I think you've already conceded that players using cyclic initiative wouldn't act cooperatively.
Not at all. It's a cooperative game, I don't think the initiative system much impacts that. (see above about 'coordinating actions')

You think they wouldn't do that and would prefer instead to make attack rolls.
IMX, yeah, players tend to want to /do stuff/. ;)

I just thought of another example:

You could run an expansive, three-dimensional combat with lots of vertical movement and swooping dragons over an area the width of the grand canyon (a mile or so), and you could do it even with battlegrids instead of ToTM. Battlegrids seem to make people want to run combats in areas less than a couple of hundred feet across, and very little verticality.
I can and have run 3D combats with lots of vertical movement using hex or grid (you just note altitude for each figure, for instance with a d20 next to them), it's much easier than trying to keep it all straight in TotM.

At the time and distance scales of D&D - and, especially, the fast combats of 5e - such a combat couldn't be spread out over a mile, though.
 
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When I think about it, choosing to attack an enemy you're unlikely to kill in one go is starting a multi-round action. I see players begin multi-round actions all the time. Literally 'declare' them, not so much, since there's no need to commit to the rest of the action.

Interesting distinction and interesting point. I had in mind things that don't have any payoff if you abort them in the middle--but you're right that there's no payoff either for half-killing a monster, except for the visceral satisfaction some people get out of "doing damage."

*snip* Do you hold a player to a multi-round declaration until it's completed, or let them give up on 'em and try something else?

I'd let Bob change his mind on the second round and rush back--but I wouldn't ask him for his action declaration on the second round, or the other players either. I'd just make two attack sequences at disadvantage for the T-Rex and then say, "And then Bob throws the lever and the portcullis falls!" [cheering ensues, if anyone is still alive] (Well, in actuality I'd have an initiative contest on the second round to see if the T-Rex eats Brad before Bob can throw the lever. That is, I'd roll the T-Rex's attacks and damage before the initiative, not least because it adds to the dramatic tension to have Brad know exactly what the stakes are when Bob is racing for that lever.)

My experience with improvised actions is that it's driven more by the range of PC abilities than by the initiative system. If a PC can do something a little unusual, players look for creative ways to leverage that.

I can see formal 'declaration' of multi-round actions happening less often in the turn-based system. I don't see it impacting improv so much, though.

Okay, maybe I'm wrong then. This is conjecture. I'm pleased that at least now we're talking about the same thing.

I can and have run 3D combats with lots of vertical movement using hex or grid (you just note altitude for each figure, for instance with a d20 next to them), it's much easier than trying to keep it all straight in TotM.

Fair point, and good for you, but that sounds pretty 2D to me still. Maybe 2.5D. I had something a little bit more 3D in mind, involving concepts like "over" and "under" and "through", like a ten-story tower with PCs on various levels shooting at the dragons dive-bombing the city walls while enemy warlocks gun down civilians with Eldritch Blast and earth elemental sappers assault the tower from below. I haven't run anything on that scale but I wish I could, and I think it's unlikely to ever happen until I get better tools for supporting it. Hence the point about "would" vs. "could".

At the time and distance scales of D&D - and, especially, the fast combats of 5e - such a combat couldn't be spread out over a mile, though.

They could, and I have run combats spread out over miles. (Using spelljamming ships in some cases, or dinosaur cavalry in others.) Combat doesn't require everyone to be in weapons-range of all other combatants at all times. It just requires conflict between people who are interacting violently with each other in the same locale.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Interesting distinction and interesting point. I had in mind things that don't have any payoff if you abort them in the middle--but you're right that there's no payoff either for half-killing a monster, except for the visceral satisfaction some people get out of "doing damage."
I'd let Bob change his mind on the second round and rush back--but I wouldn't ask him for his action declaration on the second round, or the other players either.
Functionally, just doesn't sound that important/different.

Fair point, and good for you, but that sounds pretty 2D to me still. Maybe 2.5D. I had something a little bit more 3D in mind
There's a level of abstraction in a TTRPG, yeah. If you can track where everyone is in a 3D, space, that's 3D enough, I'd think.

I mean, you could have stands like in Mustangs & Messerschmidts and litterally put minis scale inches in the air, but I don't see a big gain to it.

involving concepts like "over" and "under" and "through", like a ten-story tower with PCs on various levels shooting at the dragons dive-bombing the city walls while enemy warlocks gun down civilians with Eldritch Blast and earth elemental sappers assault the tower from below.
Over, under, through, within, in other dimensions... yeah. If you can handle the combined weight of the simplifications/abstractions (like simplified diagonals turning your circles square, and grids reducing positional granularity and the like), you can work all sorts of crazy things into an encounter.

A multi-story tower, for instance, with action on more than one story, can be handled with tiles side-by-side & numbered by floor. The roof tile set on a larger grid for interaction with ground & fliers. I doubt you'd ever need to track action on 10 different stories, but several occupied stories is quite doable.

They could, and I have run combats spread out over miles. (Using spelljamming ships in some cases, or dinosaur cavalry in others.)
That sounds more like a pursuit scene - or a combat happening on a different scale than the usual D&D ranges.

Combat doesn't require everyone to be in weapons-range of all other combatants at all times. It just requires conflict between people who are interacting violently with each other in the same locale.
Fair 'nuff, but for any portion of the combat that involves some combatants all w/in range of eachother, you can just run it like a normal combat. Indeed, a lot of scenarios do that, have the PCs acting with a larger battle or conflict as a backdrop. The first part of HotDQ (sad case of First Module Syndrome that it may have been) for instance.
 

Interesting distinction and interesting point. I had in mind things that don't have any payoff if you abort them in the middle--but you're right that there's no payoff either for half-killing a monster, except for the visceral satisfaction some people get out of "doing damage."
Now it sounds like you're judging things by their intent rather than their reality. If someone runs off sixty feet toward a lever that's one-hundred feet away, then even if they fail to get there before the bird can bite someone, they've still succeeded in getting sixty feet from where they were. Success and failure are just a matter of perspective; they have no impact on what actually happens.

Likewise, if you're fighting an ogre, and you hit it but it doesn't die, then you succeeded in hitting it but failed to kill it. Whether you choose to see that as being halfway to killing it, or all-the-way toward injuring it, is irrelevant.
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] - I agree that the rules structure around action economy and turn-taking can be a burden on RPGing as opposed to boardgaming. You would have seen I at least alluded to that in my post a bit upthread that you gave XP to, with my comment about the player who doesn't interact with terrain until is "mechanised" as difficult terran, blocking terrain etc.

The only system I've GMed a lot of that has cyclical initiative is 4e. Before that I GMed a lot of Rolemaster, which tries to emulate continuous resolution, although does have an intiative-and-declaration phase which occasionally produces wonky results. (Eg because parrying is a % activity, and so is moving, you can get weird situations where you can move almost up to an enemy and have a reasonable defence against them; but move that little bit further and there's a steep drop-off in defence until the next declaration phase comes around. The analogue in 5e would be: if the T-Rex is 40' away and has 10' reach,, you can close to within its reach while dodging; whereas if its 45' away, closing to within its reach will leave you with no defence at all.)

I'm now pretty used to cyclic initiative. The main thing for me that anchors it in the fiction is terrain/positioning. Although sometimes this is "imaginary" (because of the stop-motion nature of resolution) 4e has a lot of off-turn actions to reduce this sense a bit, but also things like walls, drops, cover etc are "real" and get used a lot. (I've never had more verticality in my combats than with 4e. Here's a post about how the "rift" level of G2 went, and it illustrates the sort of verticality I have in mind, including a fight with a dragon where it took cover under the PCs' flying Thundercloud Tower. I don't know how much that approximates towards the ideal you're looking for.)

When I think about it, choosing to attack an enemy you're unlikely to kill in one go is starting a multi-round action.
I just started a thread about this - "Clouds, cubes and 'hitting'". You should drop by it! (You may already have - I haven't looked at it yet since posting.)

You're either doing it, or you're not.

<snip>

I am soooo tired of people slinging out the whole "badwrongfun accusation" to anyone who happens to be pointing out that someone's opinion or personal feelings aren't fact. No one has the right to change how things are defined
I think the reason you are getting push-back is because you are choosing to define RPGing in a way that not everyone agrees with.

Vincent Baker is a guy who knows a thing or two about RPGing - he's clearly in the top 10, mauybe top 5, of influential RPG designers ever. As per the links I've posted upthread, he doesn't define RPGing the way you do (roughly, lots of colour). So when I (or some other poster) thinks of RPGing in a way differently from you and closer to Vincent Baker, we're hardly in bad company.

If you want to debate what RPGing is or isn't, maybe you could at least engage with some other ideas about it. Eg: RPGing = player takes on an individual perspective within the shared fiction, combined with that fiction matters to resolution. Flavour text of ogres is pretty orthogonal to this. (I mean, MtG has built up a huge amount of flavour text. It's still a boardgame.)
 

If you want to debate what RPGing is or isn't, maybe you could at least engage with some other ideas about it. Eg: RPGing = player takes on an individual perspective within the shared fiction, combined with that fiction matters to resolution. Flavour text of ogres is pretty orthogonal to this. (I mean, MtG has built up a huge amount of flavour text. It's still a boardgame.)

That's pretty close to the definition I'd use: role-playing is character advocacy (making decisions as and on behalf of a specific character) within a (theoretically) infinite-resolution gameworld. And I'm not sure how hard I'd argue for the necessity of "infinite-resolution".

5E is mostly a roleplaying game, but when I hand control of five NPCs off to their PC squad leader to control directly as shorthand for "you shout orders and they obey you," the player is technically not engaged in roleplaying when he controls them. At that point, 5E is being a little bit wargame-ish. Ditto for wizards who control their familiars directly without pausing to put on their "I'm an owl--what do I want right now?" hat.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Vincent Baker is a guy who knows a thing or two about RPGing - he's clearly in the top 10, mauybe top 5, of influential RPG designers ever.

That's completely subjective, and probably your personal opinion. What isn't subjective is that he has been involved in highly controversial discussions. So using his definition doesn't carry as much weight as you would like it to be.


As per the links I've posted upthread, he doesn't define RPGing the way you do (roughly, lots of colour). )

Really? Then I'd be interested in you pointing out my quotes where I said exactly what I qualify as role-playing. I've listed a few things are are considered qualifiers (certainly not all things), but never actually said what is required to be considered a TTRPG. I have said what ISN'T roleplaying in a TTRPG (playing monsters/NPCs as game pieces on a board that cannot do anything other than what's explicitly listed in the statblock), but I've never listed what the definition and requirements are to be considered a TTRPG. My biggest argument is based on how the industry as a whole defines each type of game. Wrath of A is not considered a role playing game, so if you play D&D exactly like you play Wrath of A with no other elements of role-playing, then that's playing a boardgame. That is a position I have said that you will find. This distinction isn't my opinion, or your opinion, because opinions don't matter. You can call a tomato a vegetable all you want, but that doesn't make it so. I am using the only objective metric we have available to us. You are doing nothing but saying personal preference and opinion.

I am convinced at this point that you wouldn't have nearly the disagreements with me that you do if you actually addressed what I said, rather than constantly making up argument and positions in your head that I never made. I'm still waiting for you to show quotes of me saying what you accused me of earlier. I suppose I should expect never to see them?
 
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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I think it's because cyclic initiative and the format of the MM causes people to start thinking in board game terms. They're no longer thinking, "Oh, this is an ogre who was in his home with his ogre buddies eating a rotten cow five seconds ago and is now looking at a bunch of heavily-armed ugly humans who just kicked down his door." They're thinking, "It's my turn to Attack/Dash/Disengage/etc."

The kicker is that I think it's really quite difficult to think in combat turns and also think in roleplaying terms. It's natural to say, "Oh, this ogre grimaces at his ogre buddy and then they each pick up one end of the table and hurl it at the PCs," but because that quite-natural interaction is complicated when you translate it into discretized combat turns ("I grimace at the other ogre and Ready an action to hurl the table as soon as he does likewise"?), it is no longer a natural thing to do if combat turns are your basic unit of interaction. And I think that can easily bleed over even into actions which could be expressed as a discrete action, like "I grimace at my buddy and then throw a cow head at the humans" because combat turns bias you towards thinking of each character/monster in isolation, with everyone else being frozen in time until your "turn" is over. It's no longer natural to grimace at your buddy unless he can roll his eyes appreciatively or grimace back.

It takes a fair amount of mental sophistication for a player or DM to translate "take combat turns separately" back into "all of this stuff is actually happening at the same time, and the isolation is just a formality, and you guys are grimacing and interacting with each other throughout." Those who haven't fully internalized that sophistication will tend to steer themselves into action declarations which make sense in discretized combat turns, especially the actions that are designed to be taken during combat turns like Attack/Dash/Disengage/etc. "It's my turn" doesn't mean "it's my turn to do anything," it means "it's my turn to choose from a list of things that can be done in a single combat turn." When was the last time you saw someone playing with cyclic initiative declare an action that would take more than one combat turn to resolve? "I'm picking the lock." "I'm still picking the lock."

Coming from AD&D, cyclic initiative is the worst thing about 5E, and the thing I'm gladdest that I fixed.

This is an interesting post. I don't use initiative as well, for slightly different reasons, but it's really about ensuring the rules don't interfere with, or worse, control the world. To me, the rules should enable the DM to adjudicate the action, combat or otherwise, not dictate it.

From a combat perspective, the evolution that started with 2.5e into 4e was to be "more realistic" such as adding flanking, but ultimately moved it to a less realistic approach and into a game mentality. Initially we loved it. I can't stand it now. 4e went farther with it's requirement to add lots of "unique" abilities to each creature with "marks" and "auras" and "bloodied actions" that had no tie to the fiction or the world.

While play testing DnD Next, and continuing to tweak it in 5e, I've started looking at things like football or boxing when determining how well the combat system is modeling reality. In the cyclic initiative system, a quarterback that wins initiative can be 60' down the field before anybody else gets to move. Sure he might have had to fend off an opportunity attack or two, but still.

Another factor for me is that I still think in terms of AD&D 1 minute rounds. So your example with the ogres is just a matter of the two of them getting their act together to throw the table. The evolution (which I see emphasized in online play) is that each die roll is a single swing of the sword. "You rush up to the ogre and with a mighty swing of the sword you strike." Combat isn't "I swing, then you swing, then I swing."

Added to this problem is that most combats using the 5e rules are over in a matter of seconds. I'm not sure a RAW 5e combat we ran ever lasted a minute. I'm now play testing some additional rules, which add resistance to certain attacks due to armor, strengthens large or larger creatures, and other things that make life more difficult. The problem is that I don't want it to just extend the number of die rolls. I'm more interested in it changing the tactics to something more "realistic."

Another factor is that of leveling up and the abilities of the characters, particularly how that relates to the world around them. For example, in the example of the ogre, one blow from it would kill 90% of the people of the world. It's very dangerous. But a group of adventurers, not so much. My campaigns gain levels much more slowly, and combined with tweaking the monsters a bit, makes them much more challenging.

Ultimately, I prefer the game to present the characters as people living in a "real" world. Low level characters should fear ogres. And bears for that matter. To that end, a single shot from an ogre (or bear) should be debilitating to 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd level characters. Ogres should be aggressive, charging and attacking immediately, and instilling fear. Sure, they may be dispatched relatively quickly if there are several characters, but in that moment of the attack, they should fear for their lives. I haven't changed hit points much, but I've added injuries, and they are much more difficult to heal, and have consequences that last days. That makes direct melee combat against an ogre much worse. Sure, you'll probably kill it, but at least one of your party will probably be suffering from at least 1 level on the exhaustion track for the next few days.

In the end, it all kind of goes back to the current design of the game, which I don't really fault. For the majority of players (who are not the people likely to discuss this sort of stuff here), they are looking for a more "video game" or "board game" experience where they'll fight stuff, get treasure, and gain levels and abilities. For a mass market game, that's really the way to go. The beauty of 5e is that it is also designed in a way that makes it easy to modify and tweak to your liking. Particularly if you want to bring it more in line with any earlier edition other than 4e. I don't really see how you could turn this ruleset into 4e, but then I don't think you could easily utilize material from OD&D through 3.5e in 4e either. It was just too different of a ruleset.
 

Added to this problem is that most combats using the 5e rules are over in a matter of seconds. I'm not sure a RAW 5e combat we ran ever lasted a minute. I'm now play testing some additional rules, which add resistance to certain attacks due to armor, strengthens large or larger creatures, and other things that make life more difficult. The problem is that I don't want it to just extend the number of die rolls. I'm more interested in it changing the tactics to something more "realistic."

One of my favorite things about the way I've been running initiative for the past couple of years is that I feel the the combats have a realistic variety of lengths. Some fights, when it comes to blows, are over in seconds. Some are over in minutes. Some take hours.

I think it makes sense for a fight to last only seconds when the fight is simple, with few decisions to make: I've got a lightsaber and you've got a lightsaber and we just hammer each other until one of us no longer has any limbs. We're mostly limited by our respective combat rates. Under those conditions, hyperkinetic GURPS combats are over in three or four seconds and it makes perfect sense. (The quickest fights in Captain America: The Winter Soldier are also over in ten or twenty seconds.)

On the other hand, a battle involving a platoon of soldiers assaulting a fixed position has more moving parts and require more communication: could easily last minutes or tens of minutes, if there comes a point where someone needs to work their way up to fire down on the defenders behind their palisade. And a running battle with dozens of orcs on worgs harrying you through the night (assuming you were part of a force which was attacked, defeated, and scattered in order for some people to get to safety) could take hours or days to resolve.

I don't think you can consider a combat system truly successful unless it nicely handles stories involving all of these timescales. I'm pretty pleased that I've seen them all over the past year. (Hours-long assaults are likely to involve infinitely-impatient undead in a Mexican standoff with PCs; I've even seen some PCs take a short rest in the middle of combat, long enough that PCs knocked unconscious can make all of their death saves and then, 2 hours later, recover back to 1 HP and re-enter combat, which incidentally was enough to break the Mexican standoff.)
 
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pemerton

Legend
5E is mostly a roleplaying game, but when I hand control of five NPCs off to their PC squad leader to control directly as shorthand for "you shout orders and they obey you," the player is technically not engaged in roleplaying when he controls them. At that point, 5E is being a little bit wargame-ish. Ditto for wizards who control their familiars directly without pausing to put on their "I'm an owl--what do I want right now?" hat.
D&D has always had these wargame elements - on another thread I just read a post recalling Robilar's use of an army of orcs to beat ToH.

In my 4e game, when the drow sorcerer had a platoon of drow soldiers under his command, I handled that by giving him an additional action: a minor (= bonus, in 5e) action to call in a flight of hand crossbow bolts, resolved mechanically as an area burst with the appropriate range. I'm guessing that that sort of mechanical aggregation and simplification wouldn't be your preferred approach, but it worked at the time. (The drow didn't need individual stats. Given the enemies the PCs were fighting, any of them who made it to the drow got to spend a round or two snacking.)

a battle involving a platoon of soldiers assaulting a fixed position has more moving parts and require more communication: could easily last minutes or tens of minutes, if there comes a point where someone needs to work their way up to fire down on the defenders behind their palisade. And a running battle with dozens of orcs on worgs harrying you through the night (assuming you were part of a force which was attacked, defeated, and scattered in order for some people to get to safety) could take hours or days to resolve.

I don't think you can consider a combat system truly successful unless it nicely handles stories involving all of these timescales. I'm pretty pleased that I've seen them all over the past year. (Hours-long assaults are likely to involve infinitely-impatient undead in a Mexican standoff with PCs; I've even seen some PCs take a short rest in the middle of combat, long enough that PCs knocked unconscious can make all of their death saves and then, 2 hours later, recover back to 1 HP and re-enter combat, which incidentally was enough to break the Mexican standoff.)
I assume (or maybe infer) that in these long combats, there were certain points at the table where you stopped clocking over the rounds one-by-one. Is that right?

If that is right, in what sense to you give credit to the 5e system for handling them? (Eg is there something it does in this respect that AD&D wouldn't?)
 

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