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D&D 5E Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre

Example:
- Ogre leans over a PC and roars, letting its foetid breath wash over said PC. Some sort of opposed initimidate check vs PC, resulting in Frightened or Poisoned condition for a round or two if successful.

- Ogre picks up a PC with a successful grapple check (Athletics vs PCs' Athletics or Acrobatics to resist), may maneuver said PC to provide some cover from ranged attacks. Next round, ogre tosses the PC at another PC - thrown attack roll w/ improvised weapon. If the attack hits deal unarmed strike damage to both targets. Maybe thrown target ends up prone, save or skill check for impacted target to remain standing.
Both of your examples are strictly less effective than simply attacking with a club. An ogre who tried either of those would be more likely to die without dealing any damage, compared to a basic ogre who stands a good shot of dropping one or two PCs. (Unless the ogre uses a grapple check to pick up a PC and then hurls them off a cliff, which puts it into the save-or-die category.)

Improvised actions, whenever they come up in a game, are almost always better or worse than codified abilities. If they're worse (because they require too many checks for too little payoff), then you're better off just using spells or basic attacks or whatever. If they're better (because it lets you one-shot someone instead of going through their HP), then it turns into an improv game, and there's no point in even having codified abilities; and the outcome of any encounter is going to depend much more heavily on the players than on their characters.
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
I'm fairly sure that the reason the Mind Flayer Arcanist has specifically +1 CR is not a rule in the sense that "spellcasting=+1CR" per se, but rather the ways in which the specific spells on its list can slightly nudge up it's offensive/defensive capabilities. I'll admit, I'm away from book right now, and Mind Flayers aren't in the SRD, so maybe I'm wrong... but this is what I found when I looked at other spellcasters. The NPC "Mage" for example, has a perfectly accurate CR when you compare his terrible defensive CR with the offensive CR of casting a cone of cold and 2 fireballs. .

You make a lot of interesting points, and if I may clarify what I was going after, it wasn't to suggest there's a hard fast rule that I used, but that in the absence of a hard fast rule, 5e still provides plenty of examples we can use as templates to achieve what we're going after. In my example, giving a dragon up to 5th level spells like an ancient dragon might in 1e seems to pass the sniff test by increasing the CR by 1, which I can point to the arcanist mindflayer as a template to use. That sort of thing.

And I have demonstrated it doesn't add anything, it's flavor.
At a combat you use the stats of the monster and narrate the action, to narrate a combat I don't need to know where a creature lives, what he likes, what are their relationships, etc, that information has other uses. For a combat we need the stats, what can the monster do in combat, we all can be very imaginative narrating combat but then we have to apply the mechanics, if they are not there you have to invent them.

The very fact that you are doubling down on the idea that a monster's motivations, how it thinks, how it acts, how it interacts with environment has no bearing on the combat encounter just proves to me that no wonder you think they are boring. And I say again, not only are you wrong (you choosing to ignore those things doesn't prove they have no impact, it only proves you don't use them*), but you're encountering a problem that already has a solution right there in front of you but you refuse to use it.

*In order to disprove a negative, I only need to show how a positive is possible. Which I did. With one of the "most boring" monsters in the book.
 

Dualazi

First Post
You said flavor adds nothing to combat. That is objectively not true, as I demonstrated. And the only reason an ogre would do the same base attack over and over is if there is no other reasonable option to the DM. In my example above, I just showed you an example of the ogre not doing its base attack because in the actual game world, there are often other options that an ogre would do. You know, if you paid attention to the flavor and didn't treat monsters as nothing more than stat blocks that don't take environmental factors into consideration...

You showed nothing with your example. First off, you neglected to mention the additional foes in your “roll-playing” example, and then failed to show how the ogre was going to do anything different other than his basic attack in the second. I can dump tons of effort into making cool descriptions for that basic attack, as can basically anyone. That doesn't change the fact that that is all that happens from the ogre most of the time.

You said flavor adds nothing to combat. That is objectively not true, as I demonstrated. And the only reason an ogre would do the same base attack over and over is if there is no other reasonable option to the DM. In my example above, I just showed you an example of the ogre not doing its base attack because in the actual game world, there are often other options that an ogre would do. You know, if you paid attention to the flavor and didn't treat monsters as nothing more than stat blocks that don't take environmental factors into consideration...

So close to understanding... but a miss. In your example, at best the ogre wastes his turn with yelling for his buddies and a worthless improvised ranged weapon attack. What do you think happens afterwards? You even say it yourself; “... if there is no other reasonable option to the DM.” That's it. That's our complaint. There ISN'T a reasonable option for them to do stuff at the base level. There's either a convenient environmental threat that any and all enemies with a decent strength can make use of, or there isn't and it's back to the auto attack. In your example, what is difference between having an ogre be there, and a hill giant (excluding the CR difference)? Because as far as I can tell, there isn't one.

This is wrong, yo. These two types of giants are quite distinct and have distinct tactical styles. Differences between Fire and Frost Giants:

(1) Obviously, Fire Giants hit harder and have better AC (18 vs. 15) and HP (162 vs. 138). That's just your basic "higher CR" stuff.

(2) Fire Giants have strong Dex saves and weak-ish Wisdom saves; Frost Giants have weak Dex saves and slightly better Wisdom saves than Fire Giants; other saves are all slightly weaker than Fire Giants.

(3) Frost Giants are significantly more mobile than Fire Giants (40' vs. 30' move), enough to make them better at melee-kiting PCs. (Bash the PC with your giant axe and then back off 40', eating an opportunity attack if necessary, in order to avoid a full attack sequence. Taking one attack instead of three is a win; and it's sometimes possible for the Frost Giant to use its 10' reach and 40' move to attack a PC while taking zero attacks in return, especially against stumpy dwarves and other 25' movers. Use rocks to force PCs to Dash towards you and then when they get close start melee-kiting them.)

(4) Fire Giants are somewhat better at Athletics than Frost Giants (+11 vs. +9), enough so that combined with their lower mobility, their go-to tactic against tough melee foes can be "grapple/prone the enemy at +11 to Athletics and then beat him to death with your giant longsword." Yeah, I know, by default they have a greatsword and no longsword, but extrapolating longsword stats is straightforward. Even the greatsword-only variant can still do things like punt PCs off cliffs and into pits.

Putting #3 and #4 together, you also see that Fire Giants benefit from being in largish (militaristic-style) groups (one guy holds the target still like Lucy with Charlie Brown's football while everyone else beats on it with their greataxes until it's dead, then they all move on to the next target), while Frost Giants operate relatively well even as lone wolves (fewer friendlies to coordinate with when kiting).

1) really isn't a point, it's just progression of stats.

2) While this is a difference, it's not a significant one. Their respective dex and wis saves are still mediocre at best, since their linked stats are at 9 and 10 respectively, and more importantly is this is unlikely to be a discernible difference to the players, unless they make their enemies have tons of saves and are able to appreciate the slight difference. It also doesn't change how the giant behaves at all or the actions it takes, which it the real crux of the issue here. Whether the saves come up at all is completely dependent on the players, and the giants don't really change how they operate as a result.

3) The kiting aspect is actually pretty cool...except it's technically available to all giants. The only reason the fire giant is slower than its kin is the armor, if you drop that in the same way you modify them to have longswords, then they regain their 40ft move speed and return to just being bigger frost giants. Which leads us back to all the giants being indistinct number increases of each other. Also, personally the idea of giants using hit and run tactics is also weird, but that's a personal issue.

4) Yeah, as you state, for that tactic to be good you have to already be house-ruling the stat block, a +9-11 bonus is still going to overwhelm all but the burliest PCs, and grapple/shove are generic combat options that the giants are no better at than any other large strength-heavy creature.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
Although I believe that the narrative and the way the DM plays the monsters can make any monster less "boring," I do think that many of the monsters that just have attacks (even multiple attack forms that are just "to hit" attacks) can be seen as "boring."

For example, the Grick (although Stone Camouflage is interesting and gives it a chance to hide and surprise), it's attacks are just basic. It has multiattack of tentacles and beak, but there is no flavor or special effect riders with those attacks so they mechanically play out just like a sword or club attack, etc.

This is one reason why DM narrative is important for making an encounter with the Grick more interesting.

Or, add interesting riders like the tentacle hit scores a grapple effect that restrains target,giving beak attack advantage.

I do like the ideas that others have suggested about the Ogre club swing having a chance to knock target prone, push target or even swing through multiple opponents.


On the other end of the spectrum, I really like using Darkmantles because they have a clear strategy and set of abilities that work well to make them unique and interesting in combat (as long as you only use them once in a while). They are also really dangerous for 1/2 CR creatures. In one of my games, the 6th level party was camping in a cave when 6 of those Darkmantles came to investigate. Once they got into the area with the PCs, their darkness and their blindsight, with the attacks at advantage that did the "face hugger" tactic to suffocate PCs, really scared the hell out of the players, and actually challenged their PCs.

One way to always get players tense is to get their PCs into situations where they are not comfortable. The darkness of the Darkmantle in conjunction with the idea that they might suffocate if they can't get the thing off in time, does that. Grabbling PCs from below when they are in water is also a great one, pulling the PC down into the murky depths of a pool...it makes them shiver every time so even the crocodile with one bite attack has a way to make an interesting encounter.
 
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pemerton

Legend
5th edition seems to save the bells and whistles for higher-level monsters
compare creatures like frost and fire giants, which have identical attack patterns (both of which are basic melee/ranged, no spells or abilities) and simply mirrored immunities. They are 1 point of intelligence apart from one another.
Clearly not all higher-level monsters!
[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] does bring out some ways that these two different sorts of giants can be used differently, though (i) [MENTION=6855537]Dualazi[/MENTION]'s reply, which reiterates many of the similarities, also seems right to me and (ii) I personally find the melee kiting and knocking prone and pinning thing - which is a big part of Hemlock's tactical repertoire - a bit contrary to my genre expectations. I prefer giants to be a threat because they beat you up with their axes/greatswords, not because they wrestle you to the ground and then having their friend beat the cr*p out of you like football hooligans.
 

pemerton

Legend
Flavor text is just as important as the statblock.

<snip>

There is a HUGE functional difference between an ogre and a bugbear. It's called intelligence, of which the bugbear is much higher and thus functionally will act different in the game.
anything even remotely resembling a ‘taunt’ effect against players has almost always been rejected, doubly so for nonmagical ones.

<snip>

I could probably think of a dozen reasons for an ogre to be intelligent, from finding a headband of intellect, to divine meddling/lineage, demonic possession, being the subject of arcane experiments, the list goes on and on. Outside of combat there are so many dizzying factors from campaign theme to setting to character intervention
Isn't the difference of INT between an ogre and a bugbear expressed first and foremost in their statblocks?

In any event, I incline to agree with Dualazi on this issue. Given the efforts that many GMs put into crafting the ficiton of their campaigns, the fiction presented in the MM flavur text is at best a starting point for thinking about what one might do with the monster.

Whereas the mechanics tend to be prety central to resolving a whole lot of actions at the table. For instance, flavour text saying that ogres are notorious wrestlers is going to fall a bit flat if they don't get to add the Prof bonus to checks to grapple or shove. Various posters upthread (I think one was [MENTION=6778479]Shadowdweller00[/MENTION] - yep, post 32) have suggested giving the ogre fetid breath that stuns or otherwise debuffs the PCs - and those suggestions all involved mechanical expression.

And yoou (Sacrosanct) have, in other recent threads, talked about your preference for giving dragons spellcasting ability. Clearly you don't think that flavour text alone (eg "Dragons are sorcerers of ancient power and might") is enough to do the job here. (NB. There are RPGs where that would be enough. But D&D is not one of them.)

The system should be able to able to model a reasonable range of combat and noncombat tactics such as "I try to grab the orc's spear out of his hands." Or "I try to make the hobgoblin angry at me by insulting his paternity." The system should offer viable alternatives to "hit things" that are open to everything.

<snip>

4e went the completely wrong direction by squelching any non-hit things action
I'm sorry that you had bad experience with 4e, but what you describe doesn't fit my experience at all - so far from "squelching an non-hit things action", 4e had the most mechanically robust set of improvisation guidleines (p 42) and non-combat resolution guidelines (skill challenges) of any edition of D&D.

And your own example of an ogre being able to inflict the frightened or poisoned condition by breathing on its enemies and succeeding at an opposed skill check does not count as a generic tactic the system should model, does it? It's not as if the PC fighter can eat a clove or two of garlic and then make this sort of debuff attack vs a group of kobolds (is it?). And what stat/skill would the PC use? not Intimidate, presumably, as (i) they're not trying to intimidate the ogre, and (ii) that would suck for fighters, who should be the best at resisting this: it looks like it should be resolved like any other AoE debuff in 5e - the ogre sets a DC and the PCs have to make CON saves.

At which point the game has a fairly standard set off expectations about how save DCs are set, what sorts of AoE debuffs are appopriate at what levels, etc - and it wouldn't seem to me to do any harm to include this in the ogre's statblock (or, perhaps like 4e monster themes, in some list of abiities that can easily be grafted on to certain sorts of creatures).

The text of the bugbear could be reduced to they prefer ambushes, worship Huggrek and enslave goblins, in their stat block they already have the surprise attack feature. The flavor text doesn't make the combat less boring, it doesn't add anything to it. The ogre could be reduced to a stupid, glutton and hot blooded creatures who gang with other creatures to bully or prey weaker creatures, after more than 1/2 page to tell the same thing the flavor text doesn't add anything to spice combat.
I agree that D&D monster books often suffer from flabby writing masquerading as "lore". The 4e Monster Vault had the same issue. Given the roots of the game, they could take a leaf or two out of REH's book.

It's the difference between:
"The ogre moves 30ft and attacks Thorn. Does AC 17 hit? Ok, 8 damage."

and

"The brutish ogre turns and yells, 'Baaarrrrghhh! Squishy and smooshy hoomans dare think you beat Gruumash! now you dead!'. He waves his giant hand and suddenly from hidden outcroppings you are peppered with arrows from his goblin companions as Gruumash grabs the cow carcass he was previously feasting on and hurls it at Thorn!"

If you're only doing the first, then no wonder why you find monsters boring. It's the difference between roll-playing and role-playing, and role-playing shouldn't stop once combat starts.
For some of us, even many of us, roleplaying is not primarily about the players listening to the GM's florid description of ingam events, It's about the actual resolution of the game evoking an experience in the paticipants that, in some way and to some extent, correlates with what is going on in the shared fiction.

I mean, in your second example, how did it become true, at the table, that the PCs are peppered with arrows? Did the GM just make that up, and decide by stipulation that each PC takes (say) 7 hp of damage from goblin arrows? (That can be permissible in Dungeon World, but would be unusal in D&D.) Or were dice rolled - first to hit, then to damage? In which case, how is it an example of flavour text being more important than mechanics?

And to build on the example: if the GM engages in the sort of narration you've offered, but the PCs all are wearing Plate Armour with Heavy Armour Mastery damage reduction, have defensive fighing style, and are carrying shields - so the goblins hit only on a 17 or better, and have a good chance of dealing minimal damage even on a hit - then something has gone wrong. The GM's narration has misfired (unless s/he was going for comic effect) and the players (quite properly) won't be intimidated by the ogre and its troop of goblins.

And to pull back to a more general point: I don't think many of the posters in this thread are looking for advice on how to narrate the resolution of combat. Nor on how to set up encounters. I think they are looking for advice and ideas about how to handle mechanical resolution of conflict, especially physical conflict, in ways that go beyond to hit and damage rolls. 5e clearly has the resources to do so: a complex action economy, rules for opposed checks, saving throws, and so on. It even has a whole extensive subsystem that puts this to work: the spell mechanics. And many monsters exploit that subsystem. But it's not the only mechanical framework available for doing these things, as (eg) the bandit captain's Parry ability illustrates.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I love that some people believe that anyone complaining about rules mechanics doesn't know how to role play.
That does seem to be [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]'s favourite line, in multiple current threads.

The thing I don't get, though, is how Sacrosanct reconciles his dismissal of everyone else's interest in mechanical details with his own preference for giving dragons spells. I haven't seen any explanation why the use of spels is an exception to the general principle that good roleplayers only need flavour text.
 

Clearly not all higher-level monsters!

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] does bring out some ways that these two different sorts of giants can be used differently, though (i) [MENTION=6855537]Dualazi[/MENTION]'s reply, which reiterates many of the similarities, also seems right to me and (ii) I personally find the melee kiting and knocking prone and pinning thing - which is a big part of Hemlock's tactical repertoire - a bit contrary to my genre expectations. I prefer giants to be a threat because they beat you up with their axes/greatswords, not because they wrestle you to the ground and then having their friend beat the cr*p out of you like football hooligans.

Then maybe what is needed are more and better generic rules. Fire Giants, for example, can use DMG Disarm at advantage (for being larger than you) to disarm you of your weapons (unless you're an Eldritch Knight). 5E does make it a little bit awkward to use Disarm effectively since it's so free with the object interactions--but the giant can just pick up your weapon with its own object interaction after it Disarms you. Who wants to fight a Fire Giant with nothing but your bare fists for 1+STR damage?

The default 5E tactical repertoire is a tad limited, but there's no reason it has to stay that way. Taking a cue from the 2nd edition Complete Fighter's Handbook, and encouraged by the 5E PHB's section on Improvised Actions, you can add or improvise additional maneuvers for Disarm, Feint, Parry, Pin, and Disable/Stun. (E.g. Disable/Stun: target a limb, or target the enemy's head or torso for a stun. If you hit, the target takes no damage, but must make a Con save with DC equal to the damage rolled for a limb strike, or half that amount for a stun. On a failure, that limb is disabled for one minute, or stun is imposed for one minute, with a re-save allowed at the end of every turn to regain function early, per usual.)

IMO it's more fun and aesthetic to add maneuver options that anyone can use, without a character trait gatekeeper, than to add special snowflake options for only certain monsters/PCs. So rules suggestions from me will be biased towards at-will abilities available to everyone. It's okay to have build options like Battlemaster superiority dice which improve on those default options somehow (e.g. Battlemaster Disarm is like DMG Disarm but allows you to Disarm and do damage at the same time; Monk's Stunning Strike likewise allows you to stun and damage, with a higher DC than almost any normal Stun attempt would have; Rogue's Cunning Action allows you to attack and Hide or Dash in the same turn instead of having to choose between them) but the default options are best when they're available universally. Plus, then players definitely won't feel like the monster is cheating by using special "sui generis" rules.
 

One way to always get players tense is to get their PCs into situations where they are not comfortable. The darkness of the Darkmantle in conjunction with the idea that they might suffocate if they can't get the thing off in time, does that. Grabbling PCs from below when they are in water is also a great one, pulling the PC down into the murky depths of a pool...it makes them shiver every time so even the crocodile with one bite attack has a way to make an interesting encounter.

Uncertainty makes players tense. Any time they can't calculate the odds, tension ratchets.

Give players a dark underground river that they have to cross if they want to continue onwards. They can't see what's in the river. That will ratchet up tension faster than any Deadly encounter against ogres ever will.
 

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