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Low Damage, High HP ... How is this "Faster"?

IceFractal said:
Just to clarify a couple of points:

From everything they've said about 4E, a Fighter (Defender) will be doing less damage than a Rogue (Striker).

[...]

Which is faster? This:
Player 1: 5' step, attack, attack, attack
Player 2: move, attack, attack (Manyshot ;) )
Monster: attack, attack, attack

Or this?
Player 1: 5' step, attack
Player 2: move, attack
Monster: attack
Player 1: attack, swift action
Player 2: move, attack
Monster: attack, swift action
Player 1: attack, move
Player 2: move, attack, swift action
Monster: move, attack

[...]

6 secs ingame time vs 18 secs ingame time, resulting in a 3 times better out-time/in-time ratio, and a chance for everyone to act.

also less organization, because having to resolve 4 attacks per round with different attack bonuses requires some skills in math... (not so easy... at least for math and physics students)

perfect.

If commoners have constitution score hp now then i will be really happy.

one last thing: a fighter with a two handed sword will surely do a lot of damage... anywhere between a rogue with and a rogue without combat advantage...
 

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4E seems to be quite much a strategy game as far as combat is concerned. That would imply that between the characters there will be synergies increasing their damage and number of attacks. Warlords in particular seem to be doing just that; move strikers in position and give them attacks. Warlock curses seem to weaken their target, possibly increasing the damage he takes? I think that beside the odd critical or 1/day ability, most burst damage will come from synergy rather than individual action.
 


6 secs ingame time vs 18 secs ingame time, resulting in a 3 times better out-time/in-time ratio ...
Well that's the thing - I wouldn't necessarily call it a "better" ratio. Quick and deadly fits many settings just fine, sometimes much better than long and drawn out. Secondly, you're assuming that it takes the same amount of time out-of-game - I'm contending that it would take more, as resolving the added move and swift actions takes time itself.

... and a chance for everyone to act.
Unless a fight took less than one round, everyone already got a chance to act. Is it really three times as good to get three rounds with one attack each as one round with three attacks? You're having the same amount of impact on the battle either way, and while this means less waiting between turns, it also means doing less on your turn.

In 3.5, most of a melee type's damage came from feats.
However, they've previously stated that feats won't be as big a power factor in 4E, sticking to filling in gaps rather than adding to primary abilities. And the feats we've seen seem to bear this out.


Assassinations and ambushes are supposed to eliminate victims BEFORE a defense can be presented. In d20, the low level aristocrat is in danger from such attacks, not players. The player is throwing “Mr High Value & Low HP” behind total cover, eating a hit to the shoulder and then returning fire.
I should clarify this. I'm not saying that a 30th level character should die instantly from a knife to the back. I'm saying that between equal-level foes, completely getting the drop on someone should give you a big edge.

That is, if you manage to sneak up on a foe that would normally be an even fight, and jump them in their sleep - it shouldn't be a fair fight. You should have a major advantage, and their best hope should be running away to fight under better conditions. In 3E this was accomplished by the fact that a free round of attacks, especially from a whole party, was a significant influence on a battle. If 4E fights all last 10+ rounds, then even the best ambush is of minor consequence.

And this isn't just about making the PCs keep watch at night. It's about sometimes encountering foes that outclass you, but being able to emerge triumphant through scouting, stealth, and changing the battlefield. If 4E combat boils down to "either you can beat it through brute force or it's unbeatable", then I'm going to be sad.


One last thing:
Something that I've encountered in battles that went on too long is that at some point in the battle, the winning side became obvious, and the losing side was too far behind to be a threat. Everything after that point is pretty much mopping up, and more than a round or two of that is just dull.

So while high-level 3E battles lasting 1-2 rounds it too short, making battles too long can be just as bad, IMO.
 

IceFractal said:
Unless a fight took less than one round, everyone already got a chance to act. Is it really three times as good to get three rounds with one attack each as one round with three attacks?

Yes, because that's 3 decision points instead of just 1. You cannot reduce "interestingness" to just "amount of damage dealt".
 

Why are we assuming that iterative attacks actually have a decent chance of hitting in 3e ? The second attack has a decent chance at higher levels for high BAB types or buffed out CoDzillas, but not for anybody else. Further down the chain your chances fall to not bloody likely.
 

frankthedm said:
Assassinations and ambushes are supposed to eliminate victims BEFORE a defense can be presented.

Good point - if you're rolling intiative, your assassination attempt has almost certainly already failed.
 

However, there is a good point re damage/assassinations/whatnot. People sometimes talk about DPS as the factor in winning battles. However, in reality you can distinguish between at least two types of DPS: pressure and spike.

In terms of resources (other than raw hit points), pressure DPS is about overwhelming the other guy's healing. If you can run him out of Cure Light Wounds, second winds, rejuvenating shouts or whatnot, you win. Spike DPS is about running him out of time (or in D&D's case, actions). In the extreme case, this would mean killing someone in 1 round, before they have a chance to receive any healing. A less extreme case might be taking someone from just above 1/2 hp to zero, thus not allowing a second wind to kick in.

This is important because some character archetypes, namely assassin and sniper (basically a ranged assassin), are all about the spike. You go in, take your shot, and get out. Getting into an extended combat/shootout is not what being an assassin/sniper is about. 4E's combat model appears to have the pressure side handled, but I wouldn't want the spike side to be neglected.
 

Sir Brennen said:
A little thought experiment.

Just looking at the Crimson Edge power, I'm seeing a lot of damage potential there.

Assumptions:
• a 25th lvl "brute" rogue with 20 Dex and 20 Str (which I think will be conservative, since it's suspected ability increases will happen more often than 3E)
• short sword does 1d6 damage
• short sword is +3 (again, conservative)
• rogue has combat advantage on his turn

So, a hit with Crimson Edge will do 2d6+3 for short sword, +5 for dex, +5d6 sneak attack, for an average of 32.5 points of damage.

You're off, I believe. Think back to all the monsters we've seened- the ones with ability modifiers that add half their level.

So your 25th level brute is actually doing 2d6 + 3 + 17, +5d6 sneak attack if possible.

Suddenly daggers aren't sounding as too bad an option, as going from 2d4 +5d6 + 20 to 2d6 + 5d6 + 20 isn't all that impressive a jump.
 

Puggins said:
You're off, I believe. Think back to all the monsters we've seened- the ones with ability modifiers that add half their level.
No, they don't. Neither the Pit Fiend nor the Spined Devil had half their level added to their damage. It was all based on their raw strength bonus ("Strength Modifier").
 

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