Low INT and skill points.

[amethal]

Actually, a human gets 4 extra skill points at 1st-level. It is not 1 extra multiplied by 4. A human fighter with 6 Int gets 5 skill points to start with. The Intelligence modifier to skill points is applied to class level skill points.

I think I read on Sean K Reynolds website the other day that humans add their racial bonus last, so always get at least 2 skill points per level.

On page 62 (in the Skills chapter) of the Player's Handbook it says to use the following steps (I'm paraphrasing) for a 1st level fighter

1a) Give the character (2 + Int modifier) x 4 skill points;
1b) The fighter always gets at least 4 skill points at first level, regardless of intelligence
1c) A human gets 4 extra skill points at first level

2) spend skill points

[The text doesn't actually use "a,b,c" to split the text in step 1.]

I would say that given the statement about minimum 4 skill points appears BEFORE the statement that humans get an extra 4 skill points, you apply the minimum of 4 first, then add on the extra 4 racial skill points.

 

[CronoDekar]

Tell that to my Gnome with 9 Charisma...

Touche.

Still though, I'd imagine if they intent was minimum 1 skill point period, that they'd make the bonus "Consider a human as having +2 Intelligence for purposes of determining skill points at each level." rather than "Humans gain 1 extra skill point." Though it certainly wouldn't be the first time that the meaning was lost in minced words (oh, "within", how much we have come to love you).

I suppose I imagine it like so:

HUMAN: Alas, I am a fighter with an Intelligence of 6, and thus I only get 1 skill point.
* Bob Barker hops out of bushes!
BARKER: Congratulations! You have just won ONE EXTRA SKILL POINT!
HUMAN: Yay! Now I can take those learn Knowledge (dung beetle mating rituals)!

 

[Iku Rex]

I think I read on Sean K Reynolds website the other day that humans add their racial bonus last, so always get at least 2 skill points per level.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/PH_opinions_races.html

Human Bonus Skill Points
Human bonus skill points should be applied after any Intelligence penalties to skills. It’s more advantageous to the character to do the +1 human point after the Intelligence penalty, because a human character with a big Intelligence penalty would reduce you to 1 skill point (the minimum), and then your human bonus would bring that up to 2.
If you applied the bonus point first, that would penalize the low-Int guys even more than they already are. Applying it first, in effect, negates the advantage that humans get for their bonus skill points. It’s a corner case, but an important point.

 

[irdeggman]

Edited my post based on what I could find in the 3.5 SRD and my 3.0 PH.

However, it does seem to me that with the format of the skill point stuff, Int mod only applies to class level/HD skill points, and that is what is multiplied at 1st-level. So for example, if humans had twice as many bonus skill points, but one of them had a 3 Int (-4 mod), they'd still get 8 sp at 1st-level and 2 sp each level beyond that in Fighter.

From the 3.5 SRD:

INTELLIGENCE (INT)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.
You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:
• The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.
• The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.)
• Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.

It does imply, at least, that this is the net result of skill point gains - despite any negative modifer to Int.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Okay, I read throug the thread half-way and then stopped ... beginning to see arguments circle around again. But let me throw in my two cents and see if this makes sense. If its already been said before, just tell me.

The following chart has not yet taken into account the rule:
"minimum # of skillpoints per level is one."

                  INT  SP/level
Human Fighter      10  3
Non-Human Fighter  10  2

Human Fighter       8  2
Non-Human Fighter   8  1

Human Fighter       6  1
Non-Human Fighter   6  0

As you can see, the human fighter with an INT score of 6 is still gaining an advantage of the non-human. They are gaining an extra skillpoint. However, the application of the "at least one skill point" rule is what makes it seem unfair to humans.

Interestingly enough. Those who rule that a human fighter should get 2 skillpoints ... how many skillpoints should a human fighter with INT of 8 get? By my calculations, that would be 2 - 1 + 1 = 2. So .. a human fighter with an INT of 8 gets the same score as a human fighter with an INT of 6? Where is the justice in that ruling? Personally, I think it is much more offensive to make the INT 6 and INT 8 human fighters get the same Skillpoints than it is to make non-human fighters and human fighters each get 1 skillpoint for INT of 6.

But that is just me.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Interestingly enough. Those who rule that a human fighter should get 2 skillpoints ... how many skillpoints should a human fighter with INT of 8 get? By my calculations, that would be 2 - 1 + 1 = 2. So .. a human fighter with an INT of 8 gets the same score as a human fighter with an INT of 6? Where is the justice in that ruling? Personally, I think it is much more offensive to make the INT 6 and INT 8 human fighters get the same Skillpoints than it is to make non-human fighters and human fighters each get 1 skillpoint for INT of 6.

The worse one with their ruling is the following--a human fighter with 3 Intelligence gets more skill points than an elf fighter with 9 intelligence under their ruling

 

[Particle_Man]

I would say 2 skill points per level for any human fighter with Int ranging from 3 to 9.

For more fun, take the Nymph's Kiss feat from Book of Exalted Deeds for 3 skill points per level.

 

[Knight Otu]

It would be 1 skill point per level if the ability were worded "For the purposes of skill points per level, a human's intelligence is treated as if it were 2 points higher." or "... a human's intelligence modifier is treated as if it were 1 point higher."
The actual wording, however, doesn't touch the normal calculation of skill points, which is max(X + Int modifier;1). He gains an extra skill point over those he'd normally get.

Honestly, if it were my choice, I'd use the first wording, but my reading is that the rules say it should be 2 skill points.

 

[CronoDekar]

Interestingly enough. Those who rule that a human fighter should get 2 skillpoints ... how many skillpoints should a human fighter with INT of 8 get? By my calculations, that would be 2 - 1 + 1 = 2. So .. a human fighter with an INT of 8 gets the same score as a human fighter with an INT of 6?

And an elven fighter with 8 INT gets the same number of skill points as an elven fighter with 6 INT (and 3 INT!). Why's the same offensive for humans?

As far as the table goes, I understand the rules argument for it. I just have a hard time believing that "one extra skill point" may not mean "one extra skill point" in a practical sense.

The worse one with their ruling is the following--a human fighter with 3 Intelligence gets more skill points than an elf fighter with 9 intelligence under their ruling

I've always viewed the bonus skill point more as a function of a human's versatility than their intelligence, so personally I have no problem with that one. YMMV, of course.

As a sidenote, I can't help but think this is a funny thread.
"OK, here's an arbitrary build for a fighter who's not being optimized for skills points anyway. Does he get ONE, or TWO?"

 

[Tauric]

Well, it's only arbitrary because the dice gave me two bad stats, and I wanted to see what the worst case scenario would give me for INT.

It's true, this fighter isn't maximized for skill points, but he will be maximized for attack/damage. The skill points would have just been gravy.