"Low-level NPCs Can't Hit Mid-Level PCs" Syndrome

[ptolemy18]

I've heard this syndrome described on many occasions: "It's not a good challenge to put hordes of 1st-and-2nd-level opponents up against PCs of (for instance) 5th or 6th level, because the average opponent of that level can't even hit a PC of higher level."

However, in my experience, this hasn't *quite* been the case. Unless you're using lame Warriors with 11 STR or something, a 1st-level fighter or fighter-type humanoid can easily have a +3 or +4 attack bonus (base attack, weapon focus, 14 STR...)

The PCs in my campaign are currently 5th and 6th level, and their ACs range from 18 to 20. So it's not that uncommon for them to be hit in combat by low-level dudes, especially when the NPCs are able to use flanking, etc.

(Although I must admit... most of my players aren't very good at rules-crunching, so for the most part, their ACs aren't quite as good as they COULD be. And none of them are playing "heavy armor"-style characters.... they're all either spellcasters or are focused on mobility.)

Maybe it'll be different when they're a couple levels higher, but with 5th- and 6th-level PCs, I find that I'm still able to challenge them with a sufficient number of 1st-level bad guys, with occasional higher-level bad guys thrown in. (Of course, this isn't the *only* kind of encounter I use...) It's true that the PCs can wade through low-level guys pretty easily, but it's not that they're actually *incapable* of getting hurt by them. In fact, I find them to be kind of fun encounters -- it's dramatic for the PCs to fight 30 or 40 NPCs at a time, and leads to nice wars-of-attrition.

Opinions?

Jason

 

[Stalker0]

I've never heard of that problem, mainly I see casters blow away low level npcs, which is why its not a challenge.

In addition, low level guys can flank and you AID another to boost some of their buddies attacks. You can get decent numbers with just a little bit of tactics. Also abilities like trip don't scale too fast with level. A 2nd level fighter with improved trip can put a pc on the ground just as easily as a 6th level one in many cases.

 

[Crothian]

I relaly just depends. I've seen players relaly try to maximize their AC and get a good AC at 6th level, and at the same time I've had character of that level in higher with ACs in the low teens.

Personally, the last time I took low level NPCs agains the higher levels PCs this syndrome never matter. One fireball and half the NPCs were dead and the other half ran.

 

[Victim]

It depends on what kind of choices the PCs make. If PCs allocate much of their resources to physical defense, even light armor PCs can have good ACs. Of course, it doesn't take all that much of an AC boost to make basic troopers pretty worthless. If our PCs are roughly AC 20, and our goons attack at +5, they need a 15 to hit (30%). A simple +2 AC boost basically cuts their damage by 1/3rd, since they now need a 17 (20%). So something like Magic Circle, or even Fighting Defensively takes much of the sting from their attacks.

I'm not sure Aid Another is that valuable in this case. The Aid action itself has a not insignicant chance of failure, and the bonus isn't that dramatic. Let's say our mooks swing at +5 vs AC 22; they need a 17 (20%). With one handers, they'll do about 6 points per swing, or about 10 with a decent wallop from a 2 hander. So their expected damage vs the PCs is 1.2 or 2 points per thug. Now let's say each goon will aid one of his friends. There's a 20% chance that the Aid Another fails. When it succeeds, the second guy has a 30% chance to hit, so his damage per round goes up to 1.8 or 3. Since that required the work of 2 guys, the damage PER GUY becomes .9 or 1.5. Their damage dropped a bit even assuming the Aid succeeds.

 

[ptolemy18]

I relaly just depends. I've seen players relaly try to maximize their AC and get a good AC at 6th level, and at the same time I've had character of that level in higher with ACs in the low teens.

Personally, the last time I took low level NPCs agains the higher levels PCs this syndrome never matter. One fireball and half the NPCs were dead and the other half ran.

That's one way in which I'm lucky as a DM. I'm playing with a 5th-6th level party... and not a SINGLE wizard or sorcerer above 2nd level (multiclass)!!! Woo hoo!

If they're all too rules-phobic to play wizards, that's their own problem, and I'll happily exploit it........

Jason