D&D 5E Low level party vs high CR monsters?

[fireinthedust]

Has anyone tried running the tougher monsters against lower level parties? I'm not expecting miracles, but looking at the Sphinx preview I noticed it's AC17, a number that even starter characters can hit. Granted, it's able to hit them once for a kill, but I could see resourceful characters hanging back and shooting arrows, for example, wearing it down.

Not advisable, sure, but is it possible for low level parties to take on high level monsters in 5e?

What are the big problems with this in general? Not just specifics, but the major drawback to using higher CR monsters against a lower level party.

For a classic example, what about using a Red Dragon Wyrm against, say, a 5th or 6th level party, or at least having the lair be something they could get to if they wanted to go after it?


I'm waiting for my MM, and a party of players to stumble into my grasp, but would like to hear thoughts on monster use by level in 5e.

 

[Tormyr]

The major problem is that they wipe out the party. Quite often they outright kill characters before they even get a chance to act. Each high CR monster has different reasons why their CR is so high.

As for specifics with the Androsphinx:

• The three roars have a range of 500 feet, DC18 and essentially immobilize most of the party. The 3rd one does 44 thunder damage on average.
• He has highly damaging spells.
• He has 199 hp

With an above average roll at range, the PCs should be able to hit it. but they will mostly be disabled in the first round and picked off by spells.

In general, the CR of a creature tells you what is the lowest level of party that should confront the creature. You can go higher, but character death awaits.

A couple of days ago, I had a Giant Crocodile (CR5) fight our 5th level party. With one bite attack, the crocodile took the 5th level rogue from full hp to within 1 of unconscious. If that happens with creatures of the same level, imagine what a CR6 or CR7 creature would have done.

Or, play test it. Use the pregens from the starter set that are online. They go from 1st to 5th level. Have them attack the sphinx and see what happens.

I suppose it would help to know what you mean by lower level party. For a CR17 creature, that covers a wide range of levels.

 

[rjfTrebor]

i've found that high CR monsters are actually not that deadly if the players are smart and know how to avoid getting hit. when theydo get hit, they're probably going down or at least lost half their hitpoints. magic items do a lot to balance things back in the PCs' favor.

 

[Astrosicebear]

My party of three (FTR, WIZ, CLR) in Lost Mines was level 2 and ran into a random owlbear on the road. They chose to attack. It was only 1 CR higher but it nearly did them in. HP and damage scale with monster CR, and eventually the party just doesn't have the dmg pool or HP pool to deal with the threat.

Obviously anything that mitigates incoming damage will extend the parties chances. But I like this. I like that smart PCs can overcome an encounter well above their pay grade... as it should be, and receive ample rewards. Its great risk vs reward, esp for well prepared parties.

 

[Sitara]

Doesn't the Sphinx have a lot of damage immunities, meaning mundane weapons cannot harm it at all?

 

[Tormyr]

Doesn't the Sphinx have a lot of damage immunities, meaning mundane weapons cannot harm it at all?

Yeah, mundane weapons as well as charm and fear.

 

[Bumamgar]

I had a group of four sixth-level characters face off against a fire giant. They played it smart and used terrain and ranged attacks to wear it down a bit. When it finally was able to engage, it did knock out the party's cleric/monk in short order. The barbarian raged and was able to tank it while the ranger finished off at range. It was a tough fight but the party pulled it off. Now I certainly wouldn't put them up against a group of fire giants or even a fire giant+ mooks, but as a memorable 'boss' fight it worked well.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I use a mix of CRs, and very frequently use monsters with significantly higher CRs than the party. They players (well, the characters really) need to assess whether they can survive combat with the monster or not. In a lot of cases they avoid combat, either by running away (occasionally), or by interacting or dealing with the monster in some other way. Several encounters in Phandelver are designed with this idea in mind (the Banshee and the Young Green Dragon in particular). Sometimes they can't avoid combat directly, but it's not uncommon for them to engage defensively to look for an opportunity to escape.

On occasion, with players not used to the idea, I'll just let the entire party die. Then they'll wake up from their long rest (possibly in a bad situation) after a collective nightmare and lesson that combat isn't the only answer.

Randy

 

[Rhenny]

Like the post above, I'm finding that mixing in high CR monsters into some encounters is teaching/conditioning players to think more and not take combat for granted. Players are learning how to run, negotiate, use other alternatives to circumvent or influence the situation, etc. I love that.

I think many of the WotC adventures so far (Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, Lost Mines of Phandelver and Hoard of the Dragon Queen - ones I've read, currently run or play) are using higher CR monsters to encourage alternatives to combat.

For the most part, most creatures that are CR 3 or 4 above the party can be fought if they fit within the XP budget and don't become a deadly encounter. The ones that become most deadly are the ones with area of effect attacks or spells, and ones that have effects that can dominate others, hold, paralyze, turn to stone, etc.

With the right strategy, lower level parties can survive and even kill the higher level threats, but I love when the party sees that they are in trouble and they have to retreat or try to talk their way out of a situation.

Just a few nights ago, the 3rd level rogue in my game touched a rune that teleported him to another location. He was alone. He poked his head out of an alcove, trying to be stealthy, to see what was out there. Unfortunately, he was not stealthy (bad roll) so a flesh golem and a medusa heard him and looked right at him. Lucky for him he had an inspiration point, so when he made his con check vs. medusa, he made it at advantage. He rolled one fail and then a save. But, he also rolled low on initiative so he got hit with two arrows from the medusa's longbow and then the golem smashed him, missing once and hitting a second time. This brought him down to 4 hit points. He clearly realized that he needed to touch another rune in the alcove to try to teleport back to where the rest of the party was. He did that and the monsters were unable to follow (well, the golem was too big to fit into the alcove - The medusa was just not interested in leaving her chamber).

After the rogue told the others, they could have prepared and teleported back to attempt the fight, but they decided that it wasn't worth the risk. On my side of the screen, I think with full spells and other resources, the party would most likely defeat the Golem and the medusa, but it would be a risk. I love the way the CR 7 creatures function for the level 3 players in this case.

 

[Lancelot]

I'm liking that aspect of 5e. By default, any party can (if they're lucky) kill a substantially higher CR creature. Compare to 3e and 4e, where that really isn't possible. The defenses and saves scale so quickly that a monster even 3-4 levels higher than the party is simply out of reach.

Of course, the converse applies as well. I can see situations where a lone 12th level character gets ambushed by a dozen hobgoblins. In 3e or 4e, that's a laughable situation. The hobgobs simply cannot hit. But in 5e, that 12th level character could be in serious trouble. If the PC has a 16 AC (quite possible, if it's not an "AC Build"), they might get hit 4-5 times. That's 10d6+5d8+5 damage from the CR 1/2 enemies. Good luck in Round 2.

Don't even get me started on what happens if it's a 12th level barbarian, getting ambushed by a couple of CR 2 intellect devourers. Whoa.

From my own experience, I've seen the party handily deal to a CR4 creature at 1st level through some massive good luck, including the monster's terrible initiative roll and terrible first round of attacks (it never got a second round). Conversely, I've seen 4 goblins tear a 2nd level party to shreds, thanks to a surprise round, good goblin rolls, and terrible PC rolls in their first response round.

The only thing that (in my opinion) requires a bit of DM fiat is the awarding of XP. In my games, I try not to reward players for taking extreme risks that could torpedo a precious campaign through TPK. If an "honest" TPK occurs against "fair" opposition, that's fine. But I recently saw a player trying to talk the other three guys into taking on the LMoP dragon with their 2nd level characters. "C'mon guys - one good round! Bounded accuracy! We can hit it, and it might miss us. If we win, we get a massive XP reward and the dragon hoard. If we lose, we just roll up some new guys". The thing is... he was right. If they won initiative (or, worse yet, surprise), it's conceivable that they could take a CR 8 creature. The breath weapon would be the big problem (especially for the party mage), but careful tactical positioning and a few choice spells might even help with that. Even if the win chance was only 10%, that's still better than 4e... where the win chance of 4x 2nd level PCs against a CR 8 dragon is basically nil unless there is some strange char-ops combo in play.

Fortunately, the other guys decided that their characters simply weren't going to take the chance. However, even if they had all gone for it, and won... I still wouldn't have given them full XP. In my games (your choices may vary, and I respect that), I won't be rewarding my players for trying to fast-track their level gain by always targeting the high CR creatures. I'll probably be limiting the XP reward for those monsters that they really shouldn't be fighting. They never quite do enough damage to kill the dragon, and it flies away at a certain point. They get 1/4 XP, and a split of the loot. Also, the wizard is gassed and the rogue is in four separate pieces. Fair enough.