D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[raleel]

poppycock.

You cannot roll it into a group too easily.

If your fighter can get there and attack, so can it. It's got a 30' movement.

It only affects the first NPC that it actually rams into.

Lets read that spell -

Any creature that ends its turn within 5
feet of the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw.
The creature takes 2d6 fire damage on a failed save, or
half as much damage on a successful one.​

Now, while I get why you are saying "ram", you now have a device that is going to force them to move. Monster engages your frontline, you ram it and do small damage, but now he has to move or suck it again. Moving is a bad option because he has to suck an OA, or disengage. No 5's steps for free here.

Sure, one NPC often has 35% to 50% chance to save for 3 damage instead of 7, but it's a one encounter spell. It only damages creatures (including PCs) that end their turn next to it (not one that starts its turn next to it). Unless a foe has multiple PCs around him, most foes can easily get away. It's situational.

Might be for your group. My group personally has loved it in every edition and knows to make people stand next to the burning death. It is a strong spell. You do have to know how to use it.

It's also fire damage (which is the damage most likely to be resisted or immune to).

while it is fairly common, it is not that common. Don't bring a fire spell to a demon fight. That's why the rest of the spell book exists

Unlike Hunter's Mark, all of the NPCs know who is using this spell and they can focus attacks on the wizard.

Why? available to exact same number of classes. If he's being targeted, he probably already looks like a wizard

In a 3 encounter fight cast in the first round, and a 35% chance to save, it does 17 more damage. With a 50% chance to save for high Dex foes, that's 15 points.

Could you break out your math on this?

Hunter's Mark at level one can easily do 7 to 10 extra hit points per encounter.

Sure, and the ranger gets very few of those.

NPCs do not necessarily know that it is even happening. If the ranger never gets hit or never fails a con check, he can easily use this for 2 to 4 encounters. Sure, it stops with a short rest (shy of being used in a third level slot). But it's easily a match for Flaming Sphere.

I disagree. you can run it into the guy for the same or better damage, and he has to move, and it can affect multiple guys if they don't move. It's not the same role to be sure, but, as I said, the wizard's job is not to murder everyone. His job is to set them up. If you want to murder folks with spells, warlock or sorcerer is a better option.

 

[raleel]

Can you elaborate? Summon what? Augment how?

And a question: Would you play a wizard if the sleep spell didn't exist? It seems to be making such an impact about it's power. Seems like it shouldn't be a deciding factor on wizards. Plus sorcerer's and bards get it so it's not unique to Wizards anyways.

Level 6-9 spells slots are relatively rare. If you are worried about magic resistance, immunity, or legendary resistance, don't target them. Don't fight strength on strength if you can, ever. Always hit the weak defense, always "cheat". Don't toss out the big gun first if you think you are fighting something with legendary resistance (mostly dragons, but a few others).

Level 9 spells

• foresight - no save, makes your guy excellent
• shapechange - no save, now you rock
• true polymorph - i like having dragons on my side

Level 8 spells

• maze - good bye, you won't be playing this fight
• sunburst - blind is so darned good. really. You are stemming the tide with this one, and making it into a trickle as people come out of the blind.

Level 7

• Forcecage - make them sit the fight out. this one is very hard to get out of
• Reverse gravity - no save- suck 10d6, perhaps twice. not everything has fly. also _50' radius_ - good lord that's big.

I suggest you check out http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4148541 for summoning. it does a better job than me.

Wizards are really all about "Knowing is Half the battle".

 

[raleel]

As to why play a wizard if sleep didn't exist? Because the whole game isn't level 1-5 is probably the snarky way to respond to that, but more to the point, wizards do get fire bolt, and poison spray and a few other damaging cantrips, and they get familiars, and color spray, and alarm and rituals and arcane lock and cloud of daggers and misty step and web and enlarge and mirror image and flaming sphere.

Bards are good at lots of things - i'm not going to dis bards by any means, and perhaps if you want to play almost all the spells that are on the bard's list, you are better taking a bard. He gets armor and weapons and inspiration dice and cutting words.

However, if your designs are past the realm of the bard, the wizard is an excellent choice. he gets a spellbook that lets him potentially have the most spells available (one big reason why I argue that scrolls should be dropping like rain for the wizard) and he doesn't have to spend slots on rituals if he doesn't really need to. These things give him a sort of swiss army knife feel - "yea, i can help with that by casting this from my book" - "sure, it's pretty edge case, but my investigation says that we are likely to meet stuff that it applies to"

And then there is always the "because I like wizards" part, but i'm assuming that you were not referring to that

 

[I'm A Banana]

Were I to be making a defensive-oriented wizard, here'd be my loadout.

1. Race = Rock Gnome or Mountain Dwarf. It's a choice between giving myself medium armor, or getting a better starting Int.
2. Background = basically any. Might do Soldier for flavor, or go with Hermit for hebalism kits.
3. Ability Scores = Int, then Con, then Dex. Possibly swap those last two, but the intent is not to go into melee that often.
4. Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Blade Ward, Ray of Frost
5. 1st-Level Spellbook: Mage Armor, Color Spray, Alarm (ritual), Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Sleep
6. 2nd level added spells: Protection from Evil and Good, Feather Fall
7. 3rd level added spells: Invisibility, Ray of Enfeeblement
8. Overall Strategy: I buff my allies with spells like Invisibility, Mage Armor, and Protection from Good and Evil. I use Alarm every night, as a ritual. Minor Illusion is useful to me with some prep time to conceal my allies. I spend my actions in combat inhibiting my enemies' abilities to interfere with my allies, using Grease, Hideous Laughter, Color Spray, Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Ray of Frost to consume their actions or weaken their attacks. I can use Blade Ward or my arcane ward to maintain concentration and not need help the first time a goblin sneezes at me.

I'd measure my contribution to the party more in terms of "attacks that I helped you avoid" rather than dpr. Specifically, Thunderwave and Burning Hands don't do a lot to help me support my party.

 

[Cannyjiggit]

And Flaming Sphere is a spell that really isn't going to change the course of battle too often. It might maximize the Wizard's damage, but still nowhere near the Rogue or Fighter. Or the Ranger archer that is doing 1D6 extra damage each round with the first level Hunter's Mark spell encounter after encounter. It's pretty sad that a second level wizard spell cannot catch up to the daily damage that a first level semi-spell caster spell can often manage.

I absolutely disagree with this comment. Twice in my campaign, I have used this spell (albeit as a light domain cleric) to dramatically change the course of a fight. I'll admit it can be terrain dependant but in both cases there was a suitable 10 foot wide gap.
The first time, 2 connected rooms filled with enemies. As we engage I flaming phere the gap, we take on one half before I move the sphere to access the second half. Damage was limited but fighting 2 groups of 6 is much easier than fighting one group of 12. Total damage was about 30 made up of around 20 initially and the rest pushing into the second group, I had to drop it at that point though as I wanted my bonus action and concentration to case Shield of Faith.
Second case, another room of about 8 foes, again we engage and I use the sphere this time to block their retreat my blocking the stairs behind them. No damage this time but none of them got away to raise the alarm.

It does assume that creatures can't just run through it without taking damage, this is not explicit in the rules but is reasonably logical (as per the ramming rules with it) and my DM ruled that it could effectively block a 10 foot wide gap from passage if placed centrally (we were only dealing with medium sized creatures, it might need another discussion for small)

On burning hands, it can also be very situational but with co-operation from the rest of the party favourable circumstances can be engineered more often. My party now try to set up a fight so that the fighter and paladin are together but with a small <5ft gap between them so they can block and hold multiple enemies in a line. If it works, i will go next to the paladin to cast burning hands across their front. If I get attacked, I use warding flare or the paladin uses protection fighting to give the attack disadvantage. The gap is also used by the halfling bard to get in and cast thunderwave whilst the wizard being an evoc specialist can use burning hands from whatever the most favourable position is and sculpt round the fighter and paladin.

 

[raleel]

Were I to be making a defensive-oriented wizard, here'd be my loadout.

1. Race = Rock Gnome or Mountain Dwarf. It's a choice between giving myself medium armor, or getting a better starting Int.
2. Background = basically any. Might do Soldier for flavor, or go with Hermit for hebalism kits.
3. Ability Scores = Int, then Con, then Dex. Possibly swap those last two, but the intent is not to go into melee that often.
4. Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Blade Ward, Ray of Frost
5. 1st-Level Spellbook: Mage Armor, Color Spray, Alarm (ritual), Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Sleep
6. 2nd level added spells: Protection from Evil and Good, Feather Fall
7. 3rd level added spells: Invisibility, Ray of Enfeeblement
8. Overall Strategy: I buff my allies with spells like Invisibility, Mage Armor, and Protection from Good and Evil. I use Alarm every night, as a ritual. Minor Illusion is useful to me with some prep time to conceal my allies. I spend my actions in combat inhibiting my enemies' abilities to interfere with my allies, using Grease, Hideous Laughter, Color Spray, Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Ray of Frost to consume their actions or weaken their attacks. I can use Blade Ward or my arcane ward to maintain concentration and not need help the first time a goblin sneezes at me.

I'd measure my contribution to the party more in terms of "attacks that I helped you avoid" rather than dpr. Specifically, Thunderwave and Burning Hands don't do a lot to help me support my party.

The only thing I would change is use forest gnome instead of rock gnome, since it gets you minor illusion for free. Minor illusion is good stuff. I might drop blade ward and put in something else - I personally think it is of limited utility, although not horrible.

I like this build quite a bit. Very white wizard feel, down to the ray of frost.

 

[raleel]

I absolutely disagree with this comment. Twice in my campaign, I have used this spell (albeit as a light domain cleric) to dramatically change the course of a fight. I'll admit it can be terrain dependant but in both cases there was a suitable 10 foot wide gap.
The first time, 2 connected rooms filled with enemies. As we engage I flaming phere the gap, we take on one half before I move the sphere to access the second half. Damage was limited but fighting 2 groups of 6 is much easier than fighting one group of 12. Total damage was about 30 made up of around 20 initially and the rest pushing into the second group, I had to drop it at that point though as I wanted my bonus action and concentration to case Shield of Faith.
Second case, another room of about 8 foes, again we engage and I use the sphere this time to block their retreat my blocking the stairs behind them. No damage this time but none of them got away to raise the alarm.

It does assume that creatures can't just run through it without taking damage, this is not explicit in the rules but is reasonably logical (as per the ramming rules with it) and my DM ruled that it could effectively block a 10 foot wide gap from passage if placed centrally (we were only dealing with medium sized creatures, it might need another discussion for small)

The assuming there might happen with theater of the mind combat, for sure. On a grid it's harder. Still, a good spell, i agree. I'll note that in both cases, you controlled the combat with it, which is what it is designed for.

On burning hands, it can also be very situational but with co-operation from the rest of the party favourable circumstances can be engineered more often. My party now try to set up a fight so that the fighter and paladin are together but with a small <5ft gap between them so they can block and hold multiple enemies in a line. If it works, i will go next to the paladin to cast burning hands across their front. If I get attacked, I use warding flare or the paladin uses protection fighting to give the attack disadvantage. The gap is also used by the halfling bard to get in and cast thunderwave whilst the wizard being an evoc specialist can use burning hands from whatever the most favourable position is and sculpt round the fighter and paladin.

Sounds like a sweet setup! This is another thing I liked from 4e. Teamwork pays off well.

 

[Cannyjiggit]

The assuming there might happen with theater of the mind combat, for sure. On a grid it's harder. Still, a good spell, i agree. I'll note that in both cases, you controlled the combat with it, which is what it is designed for.



Sounds like a sweet setup! This is another thing I liked from 4e. Teamwork pays off well.

We play using a floorplan and miniatures. I have a 5' diameter token (perfect size and graphic from some other game) which I place and move according to the spell. Even just thinking through it, with a 2.5 foot gap either side you would have to turn side on to be sure of not touching it and have to move between 10 and 15ft in that orientation (probably half your normal speed at best) to get out of range by the end of your turn. So considering this the DM decided that it was not possible for most creatures to get past without taking damage at which point they may as well run through it. I have also made to the same scale a "floorplan" for the area of effect of a burning hands (which also has suitable fire graphics on it). Makes it a lot faster to see and decide which creatures are in the area and which are not

 

[Stalker0]

A couple of notes:

1) People are bringing in notes about high level wizard power and spells...but this thread is about the balance of a wizard at low levels. As such, high level abilities aren't a factor.

2) I don't think the fact that the Wizard is an Abjurer is a big deal...unless the assumption is that only evokers can do good damage. Most of the wizard schools don't get damage advantages.

3) I think a discussion of the spells is the best way to argue this thread. If the OPs experience is do to poor spell selection (at least for damaging purposes)...then I think that's the best point to make.

 

[KarinsDad]

On burning hands, it can also be very situational but with co-operation from the rest of the party favourable circumstances can be engineered more often. My party now try to set up a fight so that the fighter and paladin are together but with a small <5ft gap between them so they can block and hold multiple enemies in a line. If it works, i will go next to the paladin to cast burning hands across their front. If I get attacked, I use warding flare or the paladin uses protection fighting to give the attack disadvantage. The gap is also used by the halfling bard to get in and cast thunderwave whilst the wizard being an evoc specialist can use burning hands from whatever the most favourable position is and sculpt round the fighter and paladin.

Sure.

I'm kind of wondering why your DM is creating the perfect enemy placements for your PCs though.

With enemies arranged thus and squares, and moving to the outside next to the Paladin:

. 1 2 3 .
. f . p w

the burning hands area is:

a
a a 
a a a .
f . p w

But why is your DM is setting this up with this first so that the wizard can move next to the paladin?

. 1 2 3 .
. f . p .

I don't quite understand why your DM is making this type of thing so easy for you.

Unless a room is exactly 20 or 25 feet wide (wide enough for the wizard to get next to the fighter and paladin), why are the enemies bunching up in a perfect burning hands position?

In a narrow area where the wizard cannot get next to the paladin:

With enemies arranged thus and squares (and wall squares x):

x 1 2 3 x
x f . p x
x . . . x
x . w . x

the burning hands area is:

x . a a a  the spell does not go into the wall, just showing this for illustrative purposes
x . a a x
x f a p x
x . w . x

or:

a a a . x
x a a . x
x f a p x
x . w . x

or even with a generous DM:

x a a a x
x a a . x
x f a p x
x . w . x

In all 3 cases, only 2 foes in a 3 foe line can be hit.

In a wider area where the wizard has not yet moved next to the paladin:

With the following setup of foes, the NPCs can go from:

. 1 2 3 .
. f . p .
. . w . .

to:

. f 2 p .
. 1 w 3 .

without provoking. Or even:

. 1 2 3 .
. f . p .
. . . . .
. . w . .

to:

. . . . .
. f . p .
. 1 2 3 .
. . w . .

with 1 and 3 moving around the outside, and 2 moving up the middle.

It's really hard to hold a line in 5E. The last two examples of enemies moving through or around the gap shenanigans were not possible in 3E or 4E. But if your DM lets you create gaps without taking advantage of them and sets up foes to fight in a line, then yes, it will seem easier.

My DM is a high school aged kid who lives and breathes D&D tactics and has for the last 5 years playing the game. She would definitely take advantage of a gap defense and only with low int foes have three of them move up and fight a line with a fighter and paladin (shy of a small room). She does do lesser tactics for dumber foes, but NPCs moving up to hold lines is pretty rare.

Our fights tend to be chaotic messes where a line almost never happens unless we are talking very small rooms. And my experience with 5E and small rooms is that spell area placement is hard.