D&D 4E Low magic/low healing in 4E?

[NewJeffCT]

I know if I wanted to run a lower magic game under 4E rules, I could use the inherent bonus system so players aren't required to have a certain plus magic item in order to meet challenges.

However, how would you go about running a game that had a limited amount of healing available to the players?

I ask this because I recently moved and was sorting through my D&D books and saw the Midnight setting. I remember liking it, but never getting to play or DM it due to my gaming circumstances in the early 2000s. But, it got me to thinking about how it could work under 4E rules - or, if it could work.

Ideas:
1) Halve the healing surge value?
2) Halve the amount of surges available to PCs?
3) Both 1 & 2
4) Eliminate Second Wind?
5) Eliminate all healing available to PCs except Second Wind?
6) Eliminate, or limit, Leader as a class option?
7) Another combo of above?
8) Something else entirely?

Thanks

 

[DragoonLance]

Something else IMO. Your best bet from my own research into the same issue is to change the encounter/daily concept to fit a more long term setup. You could require an 8 hour rest to regain an "encounter power" for example, but to refresh healing surges and dailies you could require significant downtime, like (borrowing from LotR) resting in Rivendell or Lorien for several weeks. This can remove the idea of healing in a night, and really stresses the party's resources, forcing them to act more "old school" in avoiding nasty encounters rather than seeking them out.

 

[GreyICE]

I've suggested this before, because I've used it successfully: Introduce a Fatigue system, and use endurance roles after a player uses Healing Surges (and possibly Daily powers) to determine the fatigue buildup. The fatigue buildup should reduce the maximum healing surges.

It allows you to limit healing without directly attacking the core mechanics of 4E, the results of which can be... unsatisfying. There are a lot of mechanics you can tinker with in 4E, but the healing surge mechanic is so very central to the entire equation that things start to become ugly if you tinker too hard.

As a side note, eliminating Second Wind has very minimal effects, except for Dwarves and Wardens (both of which should get it back, Dwarves as a Minor Action, Wardens as usual, because without it they're both terrible choices). Second Wind is rarely a good use of your time and effort in 4E. My suggestion would be:

1) Eliminate Second Wind, except as above (Dwarves and Wardens)
2) Restrict out of combat healing to 1 surge+bloodied level (aka 3/4ths of HP) (this chosen because otherwise players could choose to 'lockdown' a single minion to get someone back on their feet with what they have during combat, and also entering combat with 6 HP is no fun). Optionally allow them to spend 1 surge to reach this level, because they'll definitely be hurting.
3) Eliminate Leaders as a choice. Eliminate Paladins as a choice.
4) Restrict all powers that say "spend a surge" to 1 per character
5) Introduce fatigue - for every 2 surges they spend, they take 1 point of fatigue. Fatigue should heal slowly, and your plot should force them to enter combat quickly - we're talking maybe 3 days to a week to heal 1 point and a plot that forces them into combat regularly.

I'd also suggest keeping combats as EL+0 or even EL-1 for all but the biggest of fights - deprived of their healing surges and subject to multiple brutal 4E combats (EL+3 or EL+4), most parties will simply fold unless they're full of vicious optimizers.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I know if I wanted to run a lower magic game under 4E rules, I could use the inherent bonus system so players aren't required to have a certain plus magic item in order to meet challenges.

However, how would you go about running a game that had a limited amount of healing available to the players?

I ask this because I recently moved and was sorting through my D&D books and saw the Midnight setting. I remember liking it, but never getting to play or DM it due to my gaming circumstances in the early 2000s. But, it got me to thinking about how it could work under 4E rules - or, if it could work.

Ideas:
1) Halve the healing surge value?
2) Halve the amount of surges available to PCs?
3) Both 1 & 2
4) Eliminate Second Wind?
5) Eliminate all healing available to PCs except Second Wind?
6) Eliminate, or limit, Leader as a class option?
7) Another combo of above?
8) Something else entirely?

Thanks

When going into old-school gaming, one needs to be critical of any rules changes. There's lots of good stuff in old-school gaming, but lots of bad stuff too.

By cutting healing, you end up exasperating the 15 minute day problem. (Some DMs don't have to worry about this, but they're probably not running low healing campaigns.) Worse, most of the 15MD cures won't fix the game, because the problem isn't PCs being wimps. The problem is the heroes will be killed during combat without the healing... which isn't really a big problem in one fight (fight smarter!) but is a real problem if they need to fight more than once in a day. The end result - after one combat, the heroes hunker down and refuse to move, plot be damned, until they're healed. Even if that takes days, or (in the non-d20 version of A Song of Ice and Fire) weeks! If you want PCs to not fight, sure that's fine, but you should use some system other than D&D.

I've been in so many campaigns and game systems where healing is limited it's easier to list the exception - D&D and d20 Modern (the latter only if you know about the Surgery rules; we didn't know that in our first campaign and ran into the listed problem).

This kind of gaming sounds punitive. Punish PCs for doing something stupid. Okay, but what if a PC is unlucky? Or if they come up with a good plan, but they didn't have all the facts and ended up getting trounced anyway?

Based on my experience, if you really had to limit healing, you're better off limiting in-combat healing than out-of-combat healing. (In other words, don't nerf or reduce healing surges, and even let the heroes heal fully during an extended rest. The heroes will suffer greatly during combat, as they'll be gaming without much of a safety net, and will game more cautiously. Gamma World is much like this, even with Second Wind [as a minor action, no less!] along with d20 Modern with Surgery.)

 

[Mengu]

I'll offer some suggestions depending on what you want to do...

1) Halve the healing surge value?

This can be done. If you do, I'd double the number of healing surges characters get. Makes for very inefficient and slow healing during combat (but it's still something to pick up the unconscious PC and get them in the fight), yet doesn't throw the adventuring day out of whack because daily healing resources are unaffected.

2) Halve the amount of surges available to PCs?

This can also be done. I'd halve monster damage if you go this route, as surges will be very precious. Most people will probably look for ways to regenerate. And you might want to do something about the vampire (like not allow it). Other classes may need tweaks too. Something to be cautious of, is that this will encourage ranged attackers and stealth tactics, and discourage melee and tanking. If that is the kind of campaign you want to run, it's a great option. Otherwise, you may need some ongoing tweaks as the game unfolds.

4) Eliminate Second Wind?

I've seen games where no one ever second winds. This would not have much of an impact, except less people would play dwarves and wardens.

5) Eliminate all healing available to PCs except Second Wind?
6) Eliminate, or limit, Leader as a class option?

Either of these two work fine, if you just reduce damage from MM3 expressions to MM1 expressions. I remember back then, I could run games without leaders, and it was exciting and fun, with some close battles. I'd probably still allow some daily healing resources like Come Back Strike. MM3 pretty much ruined the leaderless game.

Other options:

* Each character can spend only 1 healing surge to regain hit points during a combat encounter.

This would create an interesting tactical challenge as characters will need to protect each other and maybe even cycle through a front line. For a character who has spent a surge and went unconscious, all you can do is stabilize them. This could certainly create a high tension dynamic.

* Characters cannot use powers with the healing keyword or powers that regenerate. Characters also start with 2 additional surges.

This is a more strict version of the previous option. It means characters can only regain hit points during rests. However, it leaves the door open for temporary hit point buffers and resistances, so there are still tools for the resourceful PC's. I'd probably knock monster damage back down to MM1 values, if using this option.


A word of caution, if your players are not optimization minded, you may seriously be screwing some of them with these limitations. I'd say be ready to make tweaks and exceptions for certain PC's as the game progresses.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks - good suggestions so far. It might be more work than I wanted to do, though.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Restrict when you recover your healing surges. For instance a long rest taking a week of lazing and not seriously fighting.

 

[Dragonblade]

I'm going to take a different approach. What is your goal in limiting healing? What are you really trying to achieve from a narrative standpoint? And specifically why do you feel that 4e RAW cannot achieve this in the context of the Midnight campaign setting?

I think that trying to convey the setting's feeling of gloom, desperation, and oppression by dark forces can mostly be done via narrative without the need for a lot of monkeying with the system.

One of the grimmest, grittiest, and most brutally oppressive (from a narrative standpoint) games I ever played in was a 3e game where everyone in the party was an epic 40th level PC positively glowing with gobs of magic.

Despite our seemingly superheroic PCs, we felt like horrible things could happen at any moment and constantly played on the edge of our seats. The DM we played with was able to achieve this grim Warhammer feel completely through encounter design, narration, and role-play. The only spells he really nerfed was long range teleportation, scry, and divination magic. Everything else was pretty much 3e RAW.

 

[Ferghis]

Can I suggest making the game more lethal and gritty, instead of cutting HP?

As far as I make out, HP don't represent significant wounds. They are exhaustion, bruises, cuts, and luck, and this has been the case since first edition. Bloodied is just what a boxer looks like after a few rounds: they're not seriously injured, they're just a mess (I'm going to ignore long-term concussion and repeated nose-breaks for the sake of this discussion). In D&D, the first real injuries occur when a character dips below 1 HP. That's when the monster seriously bites into your leg. Also, HP are a core mechanic of the game. Tweaking it will have all kinds of consequences. I tend shy away from it, but more power to you if you decide to do so anyway.

Instead, I would increase the drama of serious wounds. One of my favorite houserules is to penalize failed death saves. This sounds like it would fit your setting. On the first failed death save of an encounter, the player chooses a short-term injury that will plague the character for, say, a week. Endurance and First Aid can reduce the term of the injury. The second failed death save means there is a long term injury: even when the wound is "healed," it will still hamper the character until some potent healing force can be found. I used remove affliction, but your game can make it something else. Letting the player pick the wound allows them to ham up the roleplaying side of things, which is always fun.

Now, if you want to cut HP to reduce grind, that's well worth discussing.

 

[RangerWickett]

To get a LotR feel, just do this:

You recover one healing surge for every day of rest. That means no exertion, not even riding a horse or hiking. This means that your healing surge total is your 'budget' for the whole adventure. You can keep daily powers as is, but just forbid any power that offers healing without the use of a healing surge.