sunshadow21
Explorer
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Last edited:
[LPF] Expansion
- Thread starter sunshadow21
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perrinmiller
Adventurer
Ariel Esimae, Female Aasimar Cleric
[sblock=OOC]Yes, for the record I was talking to the players, but I would have been happy with a summary once DC (Kalius) agreed.
I want to put on my DM hat and share about game pacing since it is something I have studied and discussed with other DMs in a PbP environment. I apologize if this is long, but I do have a fair amount of experience in PbP gaming under my belt. And my comments are applicable to DMs and players alike.
In the 8 games I currently run, each group is a little different (numbers of players, posting frequency, and styles), but there are some basic things that hold true.
1. A game typically progresses at the speed of its slowest player's schedule. This can be amended to the second slowest player in larger groups if the slowest is typically skipped and just posts when they can outside of combat.
2. OOC communication ensures smooth flow.
3. All games develop a pattern or cycle of posting.
There are two different styles for scene progression:
1. Player driven
2. DM driven
Which style is best depends on the players really. I have found most players at EnWorld are not comfortable with Player Driven scene progression, and rely on the DMs to do all the work. You can see the difference in the two LPF games that I run here. Daggers at Midnight struggles to progress for this reason. Where my Scourge of the Howling Horde has no issue moving along, I just tell them to go ahead.
With that in mind, most players react to the scene and talk to the other players. They do skill checks when they think they need to be done. Then that's it, waiting for the DM to move things along at some point (usually when people stop posting
). For the most part, this is how things are done at EnWorld and with people posting 1-2 lines of text.
Now let's take a player like me. I typically don't need a DM to advance the scene for me at all. Instead they can post in reaction to the actions of my character, describing the results and what happens when my character moves to a new location. This is a huge difference compared to what we are experiencing in this game at the moment. And most of the time I have been just going with the flow instead. I have an example of this player driven style right here.
In either style, there are some basic courtesies that should be kept in mind. Typically, the players should be posting in a pattern of exchanges, very similar to when they are in combat. What this means is that after a DM update, all players should have a chance to react and post before the next significant thing happens. The DM is the one that can control this.
For example in this current scene, Ariel just moved forward to talk to the NPCs. Audra and Saktouk already have posted, so it is really Veniarus and Megan who are next, before the DM should post a reply to Ariel's conversation. With a group of 5 players, this can slow things down, but it is proper etiquette. So normally, the DM should not post more than once in a 24 hour period during role-playing so everyone has a chance to take a turn.
However, not all groups are the same and there are always exceptions. Ariel is the diplomatic character and the controlling player is often a frequent poster
. And, among the other players, some do not or cannot post daily and have not minded when things keep flowing without them. So after an adequate time period has passed, the DM could post a reply without waiting too long since the other players are expecting Ariel to do significant talking with the NPCs. They accept that they get skipped a time or two and catch up on their next post or just play things from there..
Another exception, is when direct questions are asked that need to be answered much sooner. These might be a character asking a question that requires answering before anyone can post again, or it might be the results of an action everyone is waiting on. These are judgement calls, but can be obvious. Usually DMs don't wait and answer right away. When the player and DM are on-line at the same time, posts can be exchanged quite fast, but proper etiquette would mean that they not post more than 1-2 times each before allowing the other players to react or participate.
Of course, DM updates in combat don't follow these guidelines and are another exception.
So... scene advancement. We have communicated this at times in the past, us players putting an OOC comment that we were ready to move along. This is good, and the DM should not take this as impatience on the player's part. Better yet, this can be done IC as well by posting something like, "Ariel grasps her longspear and moves forward once her companions are ready."
There will be times where half the party is ready to move forward, but the other half are interacting with each other and should be allowed to play that out. This is part of the fun.
As a rule, the scene should never be advanced significantly in time without clearly knowing the players are ready. I have some games where the players are continually interacting and you just have to ask them OOC if they are ready or not since they will keep going for days RL otherwise.
To illustrate how things should work, I will use the current DM advancement as an example (sorry SS21, not picking on you, but it easier to make the point without me explaining a different situation first.
). After combat ended, the players should have each had ample opportunity to react and interact. I would have expected this to have lasted 2-3 days while our characters talked to each other, searched for things and dealt with the carcasses. If the players are not helping advance the scene, the DM could have posted to ask if we are ready or just told us he planned to advance the scene the following day. Simple communication.
However, a better way would be that the players post their characters saying good-bye to the NPCs, inform Mr. Savi they are ready to go, mount there horses, and start moving down the road again. Then without even asking, it is clear that it is the DM's turn to advance the scene in REACTION to the players. The players are the heroes of the story, they would feel somewhat in control of their destiny, even if the adventure is linear.
[/sblock]Ariel replies to the monks, "Not sure, but we don't have any outdoors nature experts in our group anymore. I am sure this is just a misunderstanding like the issue with the Fey earlier."
Ariel rides her horse closer and then dismounts about 20 feet away from the altercation. She holds up her right hand in greeting, her longspear in her left hand pointed up at the sky.
"Good day. I am Ariel Esimae, Priestess of Helena, War-maiden of Justice. Might I be of assistance?"
OOC: If possible, I want to take 10 on Diplomacy (+10) when appropriate.
[sblock=Mini Stats]Initiative: +2
AC: 22 (20 without shield, 18 flat-footed, 12 Touch)
HP: 23 Current: 23
CMB: +3 CMD: 15 Fort: +5 Reflex: +4 Will: +7 (+8 vs. Fear)
+1 for all with Resistance
Resistance: 5 Cold, 5 Acid, 5 Electricity
Conditions if Effect: Point Blank Shot
Current Weapon in Hand: Longspear
Javelins: 5/5 Remaining
Fire Bolt: 4/6 Remaining Channel Energy: 4/5 remaining
Deflection Aura: 1/1 remaining
Spells Remaining: Orisons: (Light, Resistance, Guidance, Detect Magic)
1st Level 2/4 (Shield of Faith, Doom, Bless, Burning Hands)
2nd Level 0/3 (Resist Energy, Bull's Strength, Barkskin) [/sblock]___________________________________________
Ariel Esimae
[sblock=OOC]Yes, for the record I was talking to the players, but I would have been happy with a summary once DC (Kalius) agreed.
I want to put on my DM hat and share about game pacing since it is something I have studied and discussed with other DMs in a PbP environment. I apologize if this is long, but I do have a fair amount of experience in PbP gaming under my belt. And my comments are applicable to DMs and players alike.
In the 8 games I currently run, each group is a little different (numbers of players, posting frequency, and styles), but there are some basic things that hold true.
1. A game typically progresses at the speed of its slowest player's schedule. This can be amended to the second slowest player in larger groups if the slowest is typically skipped and just posts when they can outside of combat.
2. OOC communication ensures smooth flow.
3. All games develop a pattern or cycle of posting.
There are two different styles for scene progression:
1. Player driven
2. DM driven
Which style is best depends on the players really. I have found most players at EnWorld are not comfortable with Player Driven scene progression, and rely on the DMs to do all the work. You can see the difference in the two LPF games that I run here. Daggers at Midnight struggles to progress for this reason. Where my Scourge of the Howling Horde has no issue moving along, I just tell them to go ahead.
With that in mind, most players react to the scene and talk to the other players. They do skill checks when they think they need to be done. Then that's it, waiting for the DM to move things along at some point (usually when people stop posting
). For the most part, this is how things are done at EnWorld and with people posting 1-2 lines of text. Now let's take a player like me. I typically don't need a DM to advance the scene for me at all. Instead they can post in reaction to the actions of my character, describing the results and what happens when my character moves to a new location. This is a huge difference compared to what we are experiencing in this game at the moment. And most of the time I have been just going with the flow instead. I have an example of this player driven style right here.
In either style, there are some basic courtesies that should be kept in mind. Typically, the players should be posting in a pattern of exchanges, very similar to when they are in combat. What this means is that after a DM update, all players should have a chance to react and post before the next significant thing happens. The DM is the one that can control this.
For example in this current scene, Ariel just moved forward to talk to the NPCs. Audra and Saktouk already have posted, so it is really Veniarus and Megan who are next, before the DM should post a reply to Ariel's conversation. With a group of 5 players, this can slow things down, but it is proper etiquette. So normally, the DM should not post more than once in a 24 hour period during role-playing so everyone has a chance to take a turn.
However, not all groups are the same and there are always exceptions. Ariel is the diplomatic character and the controlling player is often a frequent poster
. And, among the other players, some do not or cannot post daily and have not minded when things keep flowing without them. So after an adequate time period has passed, the DM could post a reply without waiting too long since the other players are expecting Ariel to do significant talking with the NPCs. They accept that they get skipped a time or two and catch up on their next post or just play things from there..Another exception, is when direct questions are asked that need to be answered much sooner. These might be a character asking a question that requires answering before anyone can post again, or it might be the results of an action everyone is waiting on. These are judgement calls, but can be obvious. Usually DMs don't wait and answer right away. When the player and DM are on-line at the same time, posts can be exchanged quite fast, but proper etiquette would mean that they not post more than 1-2 times each before allowing the other players to react or participate.
Of course, DM updates in combat don't follow these guidelines and are another exception.
So... scene advancement. We have communicated this at times in the past, us players putting an OOC comment that we were ready to move along. This is good, and the DM should not take this as impatience on the player's part. Better yet, this can be done IC as well by posting something like, "Ariel grasps her longspear and moves forward once her companions are ready."
There will be times where half the party is ready to move forward, but the other half are interacting with each other and should be allowed to play that out. This is part of the fun.
As a rule, the scene should never be advanced significantly in time without clearly knowing the players are ready. I have some games where the players are continually interacting and you just have to ask them OOC if they are ready or not since they will keep going for days RL otherwise.
To illustrate how things should work, I will use the current DM advancement as an example (sorry SS21, not picking on you, but it easier to make the point without me explaining a different situation first.
). After combat ended, the players should have each had ample opportunity to react and interact. I would have expected this to have lasted 2-3 days while our characters talked to each other, searched for things and dealt with the carcasses. If the players are not helping advance the scene, the DM could have posted to ask if we are ready or just told us he planned to advance the scene the following day. Simple communication.However, a better way would be that the players post their characters saying good-bye to the NPCs, inform Mr. Savi they are ready to go, mount there horses, and start moving down the road again. Then without even asking, it is clear that it is the DM's turn to advance the scene in REACTION to the players. The players are the heroes of the story, they would feel somewhat in control of their destiny, even if the adventure is linear.
[/sblock]Ariel replies to the monks, "Not sure, but we don't have any outdoors nature experts in our group anymore. I am sure this is just a misunderstanding like the issue with the Fey earlier."
Ariel rides her horse closer and then dismounts about 20 feet away from the altercation. She holds up her right hand in greeting, her longspear in her left hand pointed up at the sky.
"Good day. I am Ariel Esimae, Priestess of Helena, War-maiden of Justice. Might I be of assistance?"
OOC: If possible, I want to take 10 on Diplomacy (+10) when appropriate.
[sblock=Mini Stats]Initiative: +2
AC: 22 (20 without shield, 18 flat-footed, 12 Touch)
HP: 23 Current: 23
CMB: +3 CMD: 15 Fort: +5 Reflex: +4 Will: +7 (+8 vs. Fear)
+1 for all with Resistance
Resistance: 5 Cold, 5 Acid, 5 Electricity
Conditions if Effect: Point Blank Shot
Current Weapon in Hand: Longspear
Javelins: 5/5 Remaining
Fire Bolt: 4/6 Remaining Channel Energy: 4/5 remaining
Deflection Aura: 1/1 remaining
Spells Remaining: Orisons: (Light, Resistance, Guidance, Detect Magic)
1st Level 2/4 (Shield of Faith, Doom, Bless, Burning Hands)
2nd Level 0/3 (Resist Energy, Bull's Strength, Barkskin) [/sblock]___________________________________________
sunshadow21
Explorer
"Only if you can get this hussy and her pet wolf off my land so I can get back to the task of turning it into a proper estate."
"Watch who you're calling a hussy there, you arrogant ass; I am not a pushover cupcake like the majority of women who would be able to stand your ego. This land belongs to no one person, and to claim it for yourself is both arrogant and foolish."
The principles for the two sides, both wanting very much to attack the other, but neither wanting to be the aggresor, exchange barbs as they take in your party and it's obvious fighting capability. The noble's five men stand clumped together holding their axes, watching the scene nervously, awaiting further instructions from their lord.
OOC: Taking 10 initially is not going to be possible as both sides are on the verge of attacking, and the wrong words could easily turn the standoff into a fight.
"Watch who you're calling a hussy there, you arrogant ass; I am not a pushover cupcake like the majority of women who would be able to stand your ego. This land belongs to no one person, and to claim it for yourself is both arrogant and foolish."
The principles for the two sides, both wanting very much to attack the other, but neither wanting to be the aggresor, exchange barbs as they take in your party and it's obvious fighting capability. The noble's five men stand clumped together holding their axes, watching the scene nervously, awaiting further instructions from their lord.
OOC: Taking 10 initially is not going to be possible as both sides are on the verge of attacking, and the wrong words could easily turn the standoff into a fight.
sunshadow21
Explorer
"I suspect your weapons, or at least the threat of said weapons being used against them, would be more effective in getting them to back down than anything we could say. Neither seem likely to recognize much of anybody as peers worthy of respect at this particular moment." Adolfo whispers back.
DalkonCledwin
First Post
"Why don't we calm down folks. Determining whose got the right to land is certainly a worthy cause, but is not worth bloodshed. I would rather avoid witnessing bloodshed if at all possible." Veniarus says in a calm and soothing voice.
Kalius adds "Master, if the need arises I am more than willing to back you."
Kalius adds "Master, if the need arises I am more than willing to back you."
sunshadow21
Explorer
The two turn to make their case to you, as they seem to be getting nowhere with each other, though both are still wary of you and each other.
"There is no question to who has the right to the land. It was given, quite legally, to to a string of fine lords dating back at least 200 years. Her druidic babbling is fine to a point, but it's not like I'm planning on cutting every single tree down. That would be foolish. However, to not cut anything down, would be equally foolish, as civilization would never get anywhere."
"I never said don't cut anything down; I'm too much of a realist for that. But there are plenty of already developed lumber groves on the estate that would serve perfectly fine if managed properly."
"Are you accusing me of mismanagement, you nature loving hussy? I will have you know that I have turned this dump of an useless estate into a prosperous ecomonic entity that will help, rather than hinder, the surrounding area. Building an inn here is part of that greater plan to fill a real need; I have more important things to do than randomly cut down trees to be spiteful to nature."
"An inn, yes, but I've seen what these places turn into, and they are by no means a necessity to the surrounding area. And call me a hussy again, and I may have to have Windspeaker introduce his teeth to your throat just to get you to shut up."
"There is no question to who has the right to the land. It was given, quite legally, to to a string of fine lords dating back at least 200 years. Her druidic babbling is fine to a point, but it's not like I'm planning on cutting every single tree down. That would be foolish. However, to not cut anything down, would be equally foolish, as civilization would never get anywhere."
"I never said don't cut anything down; I'm too much of a realist for that. But there are plenty of already developed lumber groves on the estate that would serve perfectly fine if managed properly."
"Are you accusing me of mismanagement, you nature loving hussy? I will have you know that I have turned this dump of an useless estate into a prosperous ecomonic entity that will help, rather than hinder, the surrounding area. Building an inn here is part of that greater plan to fill a real need; I have more important things to do than randomly cut down trees to be spiteful to nature."
"An inn, yes, but I've seen what these places turn into, and they are by no means a necessity to the surrounding area. And call me a hussy again, and I may have to have Windspeaker introduce his teeth to your throat just to get you to shut up."
DalkonCledwin
First Post
"Hrm, coming from a forested land myself I think I can see the problem. While an Inn is all well and good, I do not think it is absolutely vital..." Veniarus looks around at the surrounding area appraising it himself and coming to a conclusion. "Would it not be possible to create a camping area of some sort, one that would not necessarily attract the dregs of society to it. One which can be fortified against potential attack from, Orcs, Trolls, and other hostile enemies that would potentially attack a more 'civilized' encroachment into the area." He pauses for a moment to take a breath then he continues, "Then there is the matter of the taking of the lumber from this area, mismanagement would be a problem. Is it possible to take only what one needs, and to plant new tree's to replace those that you have taken from the woods?"
Artur Hawkwing
First Post
Audra watches the pair with some interest. When the mention of Druidic is made, her eyes immediately scan the woman, looking for any visible indication of what deity, if identifiable, she may serve. She also eyes then turns to the man's semi passionate declaration regarding the inn and his efforts not to cause random destruction.
Saktouk Bekloric, half-orc monk
Saktouk finds himself completely out of sorts as the bickering commences. He lets himself fall out of a fighting stance as it becomes clear there's at least a chance of things being solved non-violently, but having no sense of how to properly manage things, he keeps his mouth shut and his eyes open.
Saktouk finds himself completely out of sorts as the bickering commences. He lets himself fall out of a fighting stance as it becomes clear there's at least a chance of things being solved non-violently, but having no sense of how to properly manage things, he keeps his mouth shut and his eyes open.
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