Paizo Luxuries in a game with magic items

[CapnZapp]

@nevin I'm sorry but you seem mostly to go on a personal rant. While always good to cleanse I can't really use "suggestions" like "The only reason pathfinders gold system makes no sense is they screwed up by making magic item prices insane"

I certainly don't want to re-price all the items in the Treasure chapter.

And as I said (or rather meant) Pathfinder 2 contains zero thoughts on what other things cost, other than what's in the Equipment chapter.

D&D is simply laser-focused on adventuring, so the only way "you find 50,000 gold" makes sense is if desirable purchases is in the five-digit range.

In Pathfinder 2 at least there IS such a menu of item purchases = magic items. In 5th Edition, gold is essentially worthless.

Spoiler: Please don't derail THIS thread to discuss whether gold is worthless

Go literally anywhere else instead!

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Does gold seem... worthless this Edition?

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D&D 5E - What's the point of gold?

I have only DM'ed one session, but at the end of that session, people asked me what the point of gold is, I point them to the purchasable items, but they said that the items seem pretty cheap and they're likely to fill out their gear sooner or later. Since I haven't ran a game for long, I want...

www.enworld.org

So I again I ask, what's a good alternative to luxury points (or wealth levels)?

Again, asking the players to abstain from a juicy magic weapon or wand just to be able to maintain his mistress, or her drug addiction, is simply inconceivable, at least in my group. But fixing that is the easy part (just have separate currencies) so it's already done. The question is: what is the most fun currency for "downtime purchases"? I'm hoping for suggestions other than gold since I don't want to have to invent a new Wealth By Level table and/or create a believable fantasy economy

 

[nevin]

You are trying to redesign the entire rewards system of pathfinder and want an quick easy no effort way to do it. Your trying to seperate one type of goods from another type of goods. In effect you want to seperate "adventuring gear/Magic gear" from everything else in the economy that you consider "vanity or wealth related. I don't think there is a good alternative. Wealth and what you do with it is part of the rewards system of pathfinder. Players are expected to spend their wealth in thier own way. Economies work because people spend money on things based on how available and how useful they are. You are taking away thier choice to do so because you don't think it's fair for them to decide to go without to do what they want in. You seem to want a wealth without consequences thing where they don't ever have to sacrifice Adventuring stuff for comfort / vanity stuff. Just start them out as rich nobles and go from there. Make money pointless from the beginning. Then you don't have to rewire the entire rewards system for the game.

BTW I wasn't ranting about pathfinder I was simply pointing out pathfinder doesn't handle wealth well once you leave the Christmas tree effect and their wealth by player level tables behind. For them it's just an afterthought and if you go any deeper into anything that involves wealth it falls apart, many magic items are worth insane sums of money in most games. 100,000 gold pieces or more in some cases. beyond 5 or 6th level pathfinder rewards system doesnt' make any sense on any level except that you get more every level.

 

[CapnZapp]

BTW I wasn't ranting about pathfinder I was simply pointing out pathfinder doesn't handle wealth well once you leave the Christmas tree effect and their wealth by player level tables behind. For them it's just an afterthought and if you go any deeper into anything that involves wealth it falls apart, many magic items are worth insane sums of money in most games. 100,000 gold pieces or more in some cases. beyond 5 or 6th level pathfinder rewards system doesnt' make any sense on any level except that you get more every level.

First off, there's nothing wrong with going on a good rant! Get it out your system!

You are trying to redesign the entire rewards system of pathfinder and want an quick easy no effort way to do it. Your trying to seperate one type of goods from another type of goods. In effect you want to seperate "adventuring gear/Magic gear" from everything else in the economy that you consider "vanity or wealth related. I don't think there is a good alternative. Wealth and what you do with it is part of the rewards system of pathfinder. Players are expected to spend their wealth in thier own way. Economies work because people spend money on things based on how available and how useful they are. You are taking away thier choice to do so because you don't think it's fair for them to decide to go without to do what they want in. You seem to want a wealth without consequences thing where they don't ever have to sacrifice Adventuring stuff for comfort / vanity stuff. Just start them out as rich nobles and go from there. Make money pointless from the beginning. Then you don't have to rewire the entire rewards system for the game.

Well, no... Pathfinder 2 - very much unlike 5th edition - expects heroes to amass magic items.

If you're inclined towards minmaxing or even survival you will have a hard time justifying a new house or a thieves guild if you could instead spend your money on +1 to attacks or saves, for instance.

In 5th edition it works much better to have players genuinely interested in downtime, and purchasing "downtime stuff" (like building their own wizard's tower).

Pathfinder 2 is much more "hardcore" in that the rules say exactly nothing about what wizard towers cost, and say a lot about what Flaming Swords and Bracers of Armor cost.

I'm not saying you're playing the game badwrongfun if you don't focus on magic items for your money.

I am however saying that my players do, and I am also saying I can't blame them - not in the context of playing PF2 where every little +1 is a cherished reward that can be the difference between life and death...

So on the question "can rewards be a single currency" my answer is a definite no. That doesn't mean it has to be for you, but it does mean I can't use suggestions that assume players will skip the next level of potency rune just to play a morally gray character. I hope you can respect that

For the purposes of my campaign I will definitely not ask the players to abstain from magic items just to characterize their PCs. Luckily, that aspect of the problem is trivial to solve - just have two currencies, that could be called blue money and red money if all that needed solving was this specific issue.

Thing is, it isn't. I really hope I don't have to specify "red money" amounts that make sense both at level 1, 10 and 20... (At level 1 everything works since I can just award money that makes sense compared to purchasing plate armor or a pig or whatever. But at level 10 I really can't see the cop heroes being millionaries - and still working as cops!) It would be sooo much easier and more to the point to utilize abstract wealth levels.

I just wish more of you would say you see the tradeoffs and compromises, instead of saying it doesn't sound like fun... since I can't really see a good workable alternative...

 

[Imaculata]

First off, there's nothing wrong with going on a good rant! Get it out your system!

Hear hear!

I just wish more of you would say you see the tradeoffs and compromises, instead of saying it doesn't sound like fun... since I can't really see a good workable alternative...

I agree. I think it is an interesting discussion to have. I personally don't think luxury points are the way to go, but I think it is a fun discussion to have. Maybe we can come up with some other better system to handle this?

 

[nevin]

First off, there's nothing wrong with going on a good rant! Get it out your system!


Well, no... Pathfinder 2 - very much unlike 5th edition - expects heroes to amass magic items.

If you're inclined towards minmaxing or even survival you will have a hard time justifying a new house or a thieves guild if you could instead spend your money on +1 to attacks or saves, for instance.

In 5th edition it works much better to have players genuinely interested in downtime, and purchasing "downtime stuff" (like building their own wizard's tower).

Pathfinder 2 is much more "hardcore" in that the rules say exactly nothing about what wizard towers cost, and say a lot about what Flaming Swords and Bracers of Armor cost.

I'm not saying you're playing the game badwrongfun if you don't focus on magic items for your money.

I am however saying that my players do, and I am also saying I can't blame them - not in the context of playing PF2 where every little +1 is a cherished reward that can be the difference between life and death...

So on the question "can rewards be a single currency" my answer is a definite no. That doesn't mean it has to be for you, but it does mean I can't use suggestions that assume players will skip the next level of potency rune just to play a morally gray character. I hope you can respect that

For the purposes of my campaign I will definitely not ask the players to abstain from magic items just to characterize their PCs. Luckily, that aspect of the problem is trivial to solve - just have two currencies, that could be called blue money and red money if all that needed solving was this specific issue.

Thing is, it isn't. I really hope I don't have to specify "red money" amounts that make sense both at level 1, 10 and 20... (At level 1 everything works since I can just award money that makes sense compared to purchasing plate armor or a pig or whatever. But at level 10 I really can't see the cop heroes being millionaries - and still working as cops!) It would be sooo much easier and more to the point to utilize abstract wealth levels.

I just wish more of you would say you see the tradeoffs and compromises, instead of saying it doesn't sound like fun... since I can't really see a good workable alternative...

Ok, I think I understand better now. Maybe the magic item economy runs on different things. Dragon scales, special metals like mithril and adamantine, and other Rare magical materials. The mages that make the magic items are a guild and they make them for the rulers. The only other magic Items would be illegally made or stolen. Technically they are worth something but what if magic items are like US military Tech. the really powerful stuff just isnt for sale. You only get it illegally or use them if you work for the authorities. then all that money could only buy magic items if the "cops" wanted to break the law, and selling stuff to the underworld would be against the law.

Even though in the underworld money would buy stuff, in the legal world your "cops" wouldn't be able to sell or buy such things. They could turn them in if they decide they don't need them so other "cops" could use them.

 

[Imaculata]

You know, that sounds like the start of a very cool campaign plot.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, it's not the magic item economy I'm worried about.

Giving out "credits" that allows heroes to "requisition" "gear" from City Armory can be functionally identical to handing out gold and loot to allow heroes to purchase magic items from Ye Olde Magic Shoppe, so that bit is a solved problem - this is what Pathfinder 2 focuses all its efforts on, and it's balanced (if not as fun as 3E/5E magic items).

It's the other side of the coin I'm uncertain how to handle.

(cont'd)

 

[CapnZapp]

Just handing out the same amounts of gold as in a standard campaign doesn't work if you can purchase magic weapons and it doesn't work if you can't.

If you can - because who in their right mind would start talking about their gambling addiction and wasting it all on cheap champagne, when magic items give you real tangible bonuses that really help you survive and complete adventures?

If you can't - because the exponential gold economy makes exactly zero sense. What cop still works as an underpaid city servant when you start earning hundreds, then thousands, then tens of thousands of gold? The whole point of the campaign was to examine the allure of corruption, and who needs corruption when you can afford the Extravagant standard of living and still have enough money to buy everything you see in front of you...?

No, the classic gold hauls of D&D since time immemorial only functions properly if magic item upgrades is your outlet, or at least where you are expected to live as adventurer with no real wish to change careers - you WANT the thrill of adventure.

---

I have something different in mind. I want overworked underpaid cops who see the criminals and the aristocrats enrich themselves every day, and whose only shot at getting ahead is to start compromising with their morals... My luxury levels was the most direct and simple way of accomplishing that without getting bogged down with questions like "how much does it really cost to purchase a house?"

I mean it's never been interesting whether it costs 1,000 gold, half that or five times as much. What's important for the narrative is that your hero is "ten levels deep" into his gambling debts, meaning it will spawn level 10 foes and level 10 adventures.

But I guess it's possible to go "okay so your gambling debt is currently 500 gold and now it increases to 900 gold" and only behind the scenes note that a level 8 item is ~500 gold and a level 10 item is ~900 gold so the level of your chosen luxury is increased from 8 to 10.

I just thought it would be easier to skip all the currency conversions and hand out luxury points directly. You get 2 luxury points and you add them to your "gambling debts 8" to get "gambling debts 10".

*** This allows stashes to remain static regardless of level - a small stash is always 2 points, a regular 4 points and a big one maybe 8 points.

This is because +1 luxury level corresponds to going from 15 gp to 30 at level 1 but going from 500 gp to 700 gp at level 8. In both cases we're talking +1 luxury point, but going from 1 to 2 points = an increase of +15 gp and going from 8 to 9 points = an increase of +200 gp.

The actual numbers (15 gp, 200 gp, 700 gp) are meaningless. Only the levels have any meaning "will the thugs be a level 2 encounter or a level 9 encounter?

*** It also allows everybody to not care whether the luxury points represents debts or savings. One character might plow her points into "party villa 10". Another might choose "expensive mistress 10". A third might go for "drug habit 10". In one case you're buying a house. In another, you're wasting dosh on blow. That one thing represents a house that possibly is worth a thousand gold while the other represents... no longer having a thousand gold is of zero importance narratively.



But if your feedback is: go through the trouble of "spelling" out the actual coin amounts, then I hear you loud and clear.

 

[nevin]

I can see that working if the players are ok with it. If you could work out the details .

I can't really work my mind around an easier way to track it than just simply Gold or money. And that may just be I"m stuck in my familiar paradigm of setting a GP value on everything in my games. though I could see some fun narrative things, like you hit 10pts of wealth and your Aunt dies and leaves you a mansion, The rolls Royce, and a monthly stipend to maintain it and your living expenses. Now your a target for criminals that want your money. And it removes any in game roll playing about spending your money, which I wouldn't like. I love spending my money on businesses, Bribes, etc to drive my characters personal goals.

 

[Tonguez]

I can see that working if the players are ok with it. If you could work out the details .

I can't really work my mind around an easier way to track it than just simply Gold or money. And that may just be I"m stuck in my familiar paradigm of setting a GP value on everything in my games. though I could see some fun narrative things, like you hit 10pts of wealth and your Aunt dies and leaves you a mansion, The rolls Royce, and a monthly stipend to maintain it and your living expenses. Now your a target for criminals that want your money. And it removes any in game roll playing about spending your money, which I wouldn't like. I love spending my money on businesses, Bribes, etc to drive my characters personal goals.

you still get to do the role play of buying stuff, just now its all about roleplaying the negotiation, trying to get influence and perks, without the drag of calculation whether its going to cost 5000, 5750 or 6200 gp - Instead its roll negotiation vs DC 13 add your reputation and rp bonus