Lycanthropes, HD, LA, EXP and You!

[SidusLupus]

Back when I was a noob in 3e, I played a few lycanthropic characters. Since apparently didn't quite understand how things worked, we only ever applied the +3 LA and then modified the character to have the appropriate bonuses and forms. What we never applied was HD.

So now, after reading the rules forum, I've come to understand that you must apply the LA and the HD to the lycanthrope.

My first question is, would it be unbalanced to not apply the HD, and only apply the LA of +2 or +3 (depending on afflictions and all) like a half celestial or half dragon?

Assuming that the first question is yes, here's another.

Extreeme case:
Say you have character who's 3rd level and gets afflicted with tiger lycanthropy. So, the character transforms on the next fullmoon and is stuck with being a lycanthrope. Given he was already 3rd, and he gains 6 tiger hd, and 2 LA (afflicted) that means he's an effective level 11 character, even though just yesterday ghouls were a major problem for him. Lets say he was really close to leveling to 4rth as well and had 5500 exp. Is his next level at 6000 exp, or 66000?

Assuming the latter, and he ditches his old buddies and goes adventuring with a level appropriate group and manages to have a total of 65500 exp. In the process however he's done some bad things as the tiger and isn't happy being one and manages to get cured. The HD and LA go away, and now we have a 3rd level character with 65500 exp. Does he immediately gain 8 levels going from 3rd to 11th then?

I know this is all highly theoretical, but I would like to know how this would work. Lycanthropy might need to be renamed the curse of not being able to adventure with friends (the semi insanity of the rampaging lycanthrope under the moon not being counted).

 

[smootrk]

I agree the rules have not been developed in a reasonable way, but you are correct. The formerly 3rd level character would now effectively be 11th level (per your example) and would not gain new abilities (or levels) until he/she acquired the Experience points that allow for a 12th level character.

Again, is it right? I don't think so, but those are how the rules are set currently. I would probably houserule some gradual HD gains to allow for a progression or growth of the character instead of the instant change.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I know this is all highly theoretical, but I would like to know how this would work. Lycanthropy might need to be renamed the curse of not being able to adventure with friends (the semi insanity of the rampaging lycanthrope under the moon not being counted).

He can still adventure. He's just going to wait a looong time to go up a level to 12 ECL. It's either a curse or it isn't, take your pick. It seems like you'd prefer to gain all the benefits of being a lycanthrope without the disadvantages (i.e. ECL), arguments on the ECL adjustment itself notwithstanding.

 

[werk]

This should go in house rules.

I think any change like this, disregarding HD and ECL, is a major change and can't easily be predicted under a microscope. Losing the HD, and the associated skills, feats, saves, etc should lower the ECL of the creature, but most templates players want to use make the character 'top-heavy' or 'top-loaded' which is unbalancing and not usually condusive to extended play.

You are effectively fudging the rules to get the good stuff and not the bad.

 

[IcyCool]

The way I see it, there are a few options here.

1. The character gets the weretiger adjustments right away, and is now a high ECL character. If he continues adventuring with his group (why aren't they looking for a cure?), then he won't be gaining a level for a very long time.

2. The character is inflicted, and the GM whips up a Savage Species progression for him, which he is required to progress through until he finishes it or gets cured. This option keeps him near the level of the party.

3. At some point, the character is cured. At that point, take the character's current exp total and figure out what level he is.

4. At some point, the character is cured. The GM decides that the character's level is whatever his current class level currently is (so a 3rd-level weretiger fighter would go back to being a 3rd-level fighter). This option feels like needless punishment for the player.

The big question I have is why would said character NOT seek a cure?

Afflicted PC: "My God! I'm turning into a monster!"
Party Member: "Yeah, but you're much better at killing things and taking their stuff now."
Afflicted PC: "Gee, you're right. This whole slavering beast thing is pretty cool. Who needs a cure?"

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The big question I have is why would said character NOT seek a cure?

Afflicted PC: "My God! I'm turning into a monster!"
Party Member: "Yeah, but you're much better at killing things and taking their stuff now."
Afflicted PC: "Gee, you're right. This whole slavering beast thing is pretty cool. Who needs a cure?"

Right in one. Even an afflicted lycanthrope still gets a pretty big power boost. Sure, it's painful to pay off the ECL, but it's handy.

IIRC, the idea is that you get the entire template all at once, *if* you're afflicted. Otherwise, it isn't much of a curse, since you can't turn into a slavering werebeast that'll scare anyone at the first level of an afflicted class.

Brad

 

[xen_xheng]

When a player is afflicted, he can either seek a cure or sit and wait to see what happens - remember he CANNOT control any kind of transformations yet; in the latter case, once he transforms he turns NPC (at least for a while), under the DM's control. The monster will act as his nature dictates him (in many cases this means he attacks the remaining party) and can either destroy the party, flee, be destroyed or captured.

If he is destroyed, he will transform back and the player can either make a new character or the party should seek a way to raise him (and deal with the same problem). The character will probably not remember anything. In any of the other cases, he will awaken later and not remember anything in most cases; at this point there are some checks to see if the alignment of the beast affects the character.

Note that through all this, the character is still his basic character (i.e. a 3rd level fighter) with no control over lycanthropy, just a curse; this does not increase his ECL (id DOES increase once he transforms, but in this stage he is not himself).

If he manages to survive long enough to realize what is happening, shifts his alignment to match that of the beast (usually parting ways with the party if they are otherwise or destroying them in the process) and keeps on transforming, he will eventually level up (with still the curse on); NOW he gets a chance to control the curse, asigning ranks in a skill called "Control lycanthropy" or something similar - seek it out in the Monster Manual. I can't remember if there was a feat requirement also...

In this stage, he has a chance of controlling the transformation and not going wild; if he manages that (succeeding a check), he will now be effectively with an increased ECL, with HD and level adjustments. He may yet loose control in many situations, so until he can get a high rank in the control skill he will sometimes just "go wild".

There are special sircunstances that allow controlled lycanthropy; followers of selûne can take a prestige that gives them controlled lycanthropy without all the alignment fuss and control skill requirements (Faith & Pantheons).

Remember lycanthropy is a curse at its core, and in most cases will never help a character; the DM should take care to control the curse'e effects and bad sides. I never met a character who would willingly allow the curse to take root; well, not alive at least

 

[Verequus]

Note that through all this, the character is still his basic character (i.e. a 3rd level fighter) with no control over lycanthropy, just a curse; this does not increase his ECL (id DOES increase once he transforms, but in this stage he is not himself).

You are wrong in this case - the afflicted character gains all tiger hit dice and is such 9th-level, discounting the LA. He gains also low-light vision, scent and a wisdom bonus of +2, so I wouldn't think, that your theory holds true.

 

[cmanos]

there is a savage progression for infected lycanthropes out on the wizards page somewhere. I used to have a DL of it. I'll check and see if I can find the link. It tones things down a bit. Basically its a racial class you need to progress through before you can progress further in PC classes.

EDIT: This is the link of the Savage Progressions Archive which house the progressions for Weretigers, Werewolves, Werebears, Wereboars and Wererats.

 

[Klaus]

XP-wise, the character suffers an influx of XP to represent his newly-gained HD. So a 1st-level fighter (0 XP) who becomes a werewolf (+2 LA for afflicted and +2 HD for wolf) suddenly has 10000 XP (the minimum for 5th level). If he gets cured of his affliction, he loses the necessary XP to rid him of the LA and animal HD.