Lycanthropy by levels, underpowered (Dragon #313)

[BSF]

I don't think it is so much that one of his characters wants to play a werepanther (Although one of mine wants his monk to be bitten by a weretiger. ) but rather that he wants to use them against his players and wants to know if the enemies are going to be too soft.

Fair enough, I was thinking long term impact in the game for being a lycanthrope. But, then the real question becomes if the CR is too low. Because you could create a 5th level fighter and then tack on the lycanthrope template.

Unless you are intentionally trying to make easier to defeat lycanthropes...that is an interesting idea. A way to create a lower-powered lycanthrope by not giving it the full template class levels. Interesting. Why not mix and match the opposition the same way a PC could if they were afflicted? That could be fun.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

I don't think it is so much that one of his characters wants to play a werepanther (Although one of mine wants his monk to be bitten by a weretiger. ) but rather that he wants to use them against his players and wants to know if the enemies are going to be too soft.
QUOTE]

Actually, no, I just want to make sure that I know what to present to my players in the event that one of them gets the affliction. And I want it to be a workable template.

You have all helped me make sense of this business, to a great extent.

However, I still have one question? Is there an easy way to make up a werepanther (panther=leopard), or am I getting in over my head? Is the process of adapting a MM animal into a wereanimal template straight-forward enough that you would trust yourself to do it without some playtesting?

 

[BSF]

Oh, what the heck, I will give it a shot. I can't find my November issue of Dragon. So, I will
construct the whole thing like Sean K. Reynold's articles on the WotC site. Using that and the MM,
here is what I can come up with.

Please, feel free to disagree and point out potential errors. I am tired and I am sure I messed
something up.

WerePanther Template Class

Level	CR	Special
1st	+1	Wis +2, Natural Armor +2, Alternate form (Panther), Low-light vision, Shapechanger
		subtype, werepanther feat (Alertness)
2nd	+1	Alternate form (hybrid), panther empathy, damage reduction (5/silver), 
		werepanther feats (Iron Will, weapon finesse)
3rd	+2	Curse of Lycanthropy, damage reduction (10/silver)

Panther Animal Class
		Base
Class	Hit	Attack	Fort.	Ref	Will	Skill
Level	Dice	Bonus	Save	Save	Save	Points	Special
1st	1d8	+0	+2	+2	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2,	Natural Armor +1, Improved Grab,
							panther abilities, bite
2nd	2d8	+1	+3	+3	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Pounce, scent
3rd	3d8	+2	+3	+3	+1	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +4, Con +2, Rake, 2 claws

Panther Abilities: Upon taking a level in the panther animal class, the character gains the animal's Hit
Dice (in all forms), base attack bonus (in all forms), base saving throw bonuses (in all forms), ability
score modifiers (in hybrid and animal forms), skill points (in all forms), and natural armor bonus (in
hybrid and animal forms), as well as the special abilities above.

In panther form, the werepanther's speed changes to 40 feet, she gains a climb speed of 20 feet, a +8 racial
bonus to jump checks, a + 4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silent checks, a +8 racial bonus to balance and
climb checks and a panther can always take 10 on climb checks.

Class skills for the panther racial Hit Dice are Control Shape, Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move
Silently, and Spot.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Wow! BardStephenFox is my new hero! Thanks for the Christmas present!

Just wanted to say that. Now let me look closely at this. On first glance, it looks a lot better than what I had come up with myself.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

BardStephenFox, a couple questions:

Since the pounce ability sort of presumes multiple attacks, would it work to simply switch around some of the abilities so that they come in a different order? I'm thinking the claw attack would have to come earlier, and the Improved Grab could come later. Pounce could also come after Rake, couldn't it?

Am I correct in concluding that the Natural Armor +2 from the lycanthrope template would apply in all forms, while the +1 from the animal template would apply only to animal and hybrid forms? If so, this would jive with the Dragon article, according to which the natural armor bonuses gained at some levels applies to all forms, while at other levels it doesn't.

I'm asking these questions because you seem to have more insight into how Reynolds came up with the templates.

 

[BSF]

Nah, Sean K. Reynolds did all the hard work. Once you see a few of the templates he worked out, it is much easier to reverse engineer the stat blocks for lycanthropes and for panthers (uses the Leopard) to get where I did. Besides that, I had a 3.0 game where the barbarian was reincarnated as a mountain lion. I had to become pretty familiar with the stats to figure out how he could play the character out. In the end, he stayed a mountain lion for roughly 9 levels. It was fun. In the same game, I had a player playing a werebear and I would have loved to have had the class templates to apply then. I all makes much more sense now.

 

[BSF]

BardStephenFox, a couple questions:

Since the pounce ability sort of presumes multiple attacks, would it work to simply switch around some of the abilities so that they come in a different order? I'm thinking the claw attack would have to come earlier, and the Improved Grab could come later. Pounce could also come after Rake, couldn't it?

Oooh! Good catch. I missed that when looking over it last night.

OK, how about this?

Panther Animal Class
		Base
Class	Hit	Attack	Fort.	Ref	Will	Skill
Level	Dice	Bonus	Save	Save	Save	Points	Special
1st	1d8	+0	+2	+2	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2,	Natural Armor +1, scent,
							panther abilities, bite
2nd	2d8	+1	+3	+3	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, 2 Claws, Improved Grab
3rd	3d8	+2	+3	+3	+1	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +4, Con +2, Rake, Pounce

Am I correct in concluding that the Natural Armor +2 from the lycanthrope template would apply in all forms, while the +1 from the animal template would apply only to animal and hybrid forms? If so, this would jive with the Dragon article, according to which the natural armor bonuses gained at some levels applies to all forms, while at other levels it doesn't.

I'm asking these questions because you seem to have more insight into how Reynolds came up with the templates.

That is my understanding too. If you look at the Natural Armor bonuses for a tiger, then compare against the 3 forms for weretiger, you can see where the +2 Natural Armor bonus appears to be a lycanthropic bonus that carries across all forms.

Maybe we will get lucky and Mr. Reynolds will see the thread and weigh-in himself.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Oooh! Good catch. I missed that when looking over it last night.

OK, how about this?

Panther Animal Class
		Base
Class	Hit	Attack	Fort.	Ref	Will	Skill
Level	Dice	Bonus	Save	Save	Save	Points	Special
1st	1d8	+0	+2	+2	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2,	Natural Armor +1, scent,
							panther abilities, bite
2nd	2d8	+1	+3	+3	+0	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, 2 Claws, Improved Grab
3rd	3d8	+2	+3	+3	+1	2+Int	Str +2, Dex +4, Con +2, Rake, Pounce

This is exactly what I came up with when I revised your initial suggestion. We're thinking alike.

Once in a while these boards come in genuinely useful. I now feel pretty confident about introducing one or more of my players to lycanthropy.

 

[BSF]

No problem. I hope it works out well for you.

Heck, I am looking at the template and this concept of a werepanther rogue just won't leave my brain. I'm thinking it would be an NPC that my players would hate. I must give it some serious consideration...