M&M: Bad First Session/All Or None

[Insight]

M&M is at the same time an elegant and simple system. It is very well balanced. Chances are pretty good that you have run into the same problem many first time M&Mers have and that's not reading or understanding the rules. It's a different feel than normal d20, so it's understandable that your first session, especially with everyone being new to the system, would be somewhat problematic.

My recommendation: make characters. Once you start making some characters on your own, you will see and understand the nuances that make M&M the best superhero roleplaying game bar none. Sure, there are a few weaknesses; every system has them. But I think once you delve a little more deeply into the system, you will find it has nearly everything you could ask for.

 

[Shalimar]

My suggestion would be to just make characters for them that are better put together then the archtypes. Once they play with coherent and competent characters, their complaints will fade. Try this, some of us who know the system will throw up a few, and you can give them to your players to run against the book characters, or against the npcs you would make.

Try this for a more competent scrapper then the pugilist:
Stats:
STR 16(6)+3
DEX 20(10)+5
CON 18(8)+4
INT 10(0)
WIS 14(4)+2
CHA 14(4)+2
Saves:
Damage: +4 (When not flat footed or area attack, may sub Reflex in for +15)
Fortitude: +4
Reflex: +15
Will: +2
Combat:
BAB 10(30pp) +13 Melee(+15 w/ attack finesse), 15 ranged, +13/+13 (Rapid)
BDB 10(20) 36(20 Flat Footed, 22 mental)
Powers:
Super Dexterity +10(extra: strike; 5pp/rank, 50pp)
Feats: 6 (12pp)
all out attack, attack Finesse, dodge, evasion, Power Attack, Rapid strike
Skills: 6 (6pp)
Bluff +4(2)
Sense Motive +4(2)
Taunt +4(2)


Look at the differences between that character and the pugilist. They both are the same character type, agile scrappers who mix it up in melee. I am one hundred percent certain that this character could take out the minotaur baring some fluke rolls, and even those are alleviated by HPs, spend an hp, and you would never fail a check by more then maybe 4-5. Conversely, with a defense of 37 against minotaur you are rarely if ever going to be hit, and you can hit hard enough without resorting to power attack to burst through up to rank 13 protection. With power attack and all out attack you can reduce your defense bonus to 32(31 against a group) and be punching at +18(a damage save of 33).

lets see how minotaur would fare against a mentalist with the following power set.

Telepathy +10(extras: Mental Blast, Paralyze; 5pp/rank, 50pp)

The mental blast character is going to have a high wisdom, just as the brick will have a high constitution and strength, lets go with a 20 for wisdom, not out of line, with other archtype character's and their main stat. Lets take a BAB of 5, rather low, but thats ok.

so the mental blaster rolls a D20 and adds +10, unless minotaur has a high wisdom, it should be a lot easier to hit with a mindblast then with a fist, and you can do it no matter how far away you are. Then has has to make a damage save using his will save instead of his damage save so he doesn't get the amazing save damage, or protection applied. Assuming he has a 14 wisdom, he has to make a DC 25 roll with only a +2.

 

[billd91]

Sure, but it's still a bit of a shock in the first session. I was just noting it as an example of how a small difference in PL can have a large effect on a game. I've since learned that a PL difference of +1 is more than enough for a single villain to give two heroes a tough fight and adjusted accordingly, but that's not something that leapt out at me when I first read the book.

When putting together appropriate challenges, you really need to look at the PCs. A PL +1 for the villain doesn't make much difference if it's not directly reflected in the level of the villain's powers. If the extra points go to expanding the flexibility of the villain, then a few PL won't make much of a difference. Stacking those extra points into raising the PL of the attacks and defenses really can.

 

[The Grackle]

I am one hundred percent certain that this character could take out the minotaur baring some fluke rolls, and even those are alleviated by HPs, spend an hp, and you would never fail a check by more then maybe 4-5. Conversely, with a defense of 37 against minotaur you are rarely if ever going to be hit, and you can hit hard enough without resorting to power attack to burst through up to rank 13 protection. With power attack and all out attack you can reduce your defense bonus to 32(31 against a group) and be punching at +18(a damage save of 33).

Ah, defensive evasioney guys. It works great until you run into a brick with the Startle feat- which can deny you your dex bonus against his next attack. Combine with a heroic surge for an extra half action that round, and he'll force you to make a con-based damage save before you can get the crap outta' there.

(also I think your flat-footed defense is too high, unless I'm missing something. Super Dex increases your defense by its power rank as a dodge bonus, so it shouldn't apply flat-footed)

 

[Emiricol]

Correct. Dex/evasion guys are great and a lot of fun, but fear the area attack!

 

[mroberon1972]

Sounds good on the surface. It's a design philosophy I embrace for villains, especially. The real problem with something like that is the powersuiters, who have everything as extras and partial extras off the armor power.

Not a problem for me, I make them buy the powers for the suit seperatly and then add the total together later. They don't get them as freebies...

 

[coyote6]

M&M is very easy to max out a character in; it's so tempting, what with the clearly defined limits, to max out every thing you can. However, while the game allows it, that's not really the philosophy of the game, and it's not at all how the sample characters (archetypes, villains, heroes, etc.) are designed.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

I found this post very helpful, as I'm in a very similar situation. I have yet to find time to run a game, but it's definitely on the agenda. I thought about doing something very evil: Making a PL 13 villain with maxed-out possession ranks with the mind-switching flaw, but a weak combatant. He seeks out the PCs to steal the body (and therefore physical powers) of the party's "brick". After successfully switching minds with the brick, he then proceeds to assist the party in destroying his former body, thereby killing the brick. He then turns on the party, proceeding to fight until he becomes overwhelmed, and then flees. The party has then to figure out how to defeat this opponent, and then to restore the brick's mind to his body. Evil, no?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well if the Brick's mind is in the other guy's bod and you KILL it, then havent you killed off the Brick entirely?

And I hope you're making the brick an NPC or you'll have one bored and/or upset player, since even 1-2 combats and some RP can take an entire session ... with him on the sidelines.

Honestly I LIKE extras/stunts ... I encouraged the guy who played the power suit to take a look at all the options he could have if he wanted to play a similar character later. The design philosophy behind making other "Attack Powers" into stunts is, IMHO, a strong one: You can either blast the guy, or snare the guy, or stun the guy. You can't do all three at once. So any ONE of them is worth full points, the others are merely "Options Not Chosen" at any particular time. So if you make him pay top dollar for each of those options, the wisest course is to max max max that blasto power, take some blasto-power-upping feats, and spend the extra PPs in maxing out Con and Str and taking the parapalegic flaw for an extra 10 ... y'know, since you're in a mechanized suit anyway. Then you get a brick with a gun and an SFX statement of "he's in a battle suit". Which is what I had with my fist session and it turned out pretty badly.

I'm going to run a few more games at the local game club ... this time I'm designing all of the PCs and NPCs by hand myself, so I'll know their capabilities and I can hand-tweak the NPCs to match the PCs in terms of overall power. That and I think I'm instituting the 2:1 skill point rule and putting a MINIMUM of 2/3 PL worth of PPs in skills. Just because I like skills and that way nobody can get "extra" PPs by skipping skills and depending on somebody else to "waste" their PP in them. If the NPCs have to, as well, it maintains an even keel.

--fje

 

[The Grackle]

I'm going to run a few more games at the local game club ... this time I'm designing all of the PCs and NPCs by hand myself, so I'll know their capabilities and I can hand-tweak the NPCs to match the PCs in terms of overall power. That and I think I'm instituting the 2:1 skill point rule and putting a MINIMUM of 2/3 PL worth of PPs in skills. Just because I like skills and that way nobody can get "extra" PPs by skipping skills and depending on somebody else to "waste" their PP in them. If the NPCs have to, as well, it maintains an even keel.

Yeah, I use the 2:1 skill point rule. Otherwise no one wants to waste the points. Also, you should check out the combat skills option at the beginning of the skills section. It's more book keeping, but I like my bricks to be good in melee and at a disadvantage in ranged combat. They seem to throw fewer trucks at people that way, and the blasters have a chance to do their thing.