M&M: Bad First Session/All Or None

[DMScott]

spending Hero Points is a normal part of M&M and is an integral part of the combat system. one of the reasons why it is so easy to get stunned/KOed in M&M is because you can use HPs to negate it.

Sure, but it's still a bit of a shock in the first session. I was just noting it as an example of how a small difference in PL can have a large effect on a game. I've since learned that a PL difference of +1 is more than enough for a single villain to give two heroes a tough fight and adjusted accordingly, but that's not something that leapt out at me when I first read the book. Somebody expecting a comic book atmosphere might think "in order to be nigh-invulnerable, I should have lots of defensive powers", when in fact the game situation is "in order to take a beating from a tough opponent and keep going, I should have lots of hero points".

i don't agree that M&M is best-suited only for one-offs.

That's why I put that "I find" clause in there - different games will appeal to different people in different situations. For me, M&M campaign play isn't very satisfying - YMMV.

i've never seen any hero go "down in a heap at the first punch." why? Hero Points. if a hero goes down in one shot, it's because he wants to -- because his player refuses to spend a Hero Point to change the situation.

Presumably it'd occur if the player is saving their hero points for the fight with the big bad guy later in the session rather than that early henchman. I'm surprised your players spend HPs so freely - if I was playing under a GM who believed the whole group should go through every hero point they've got every session, I certainly wouldn't blow any to offset an unlucky roll against the warm up crew, I'd just laugh it off and let my fellow heroes mop up the bad guys then get on with the rest of the session.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

Yes. That minimum of 10 for the Hero Point is essential. That keeps you from being blasted into next week. Also, were the players actually using their HP for stunts and extra efforts and such?

I am really sorry the adventure was not a lot of fun. Try and see if you can get them back together and give it another shot. When my group and I first started playing, we absolutely loved it from the first moment.

Another thing you may consider trying is lending one of the players the book and having them read it, too. maybe they can pick up on a few things that you missed. Also, having the players create their own characters might help, too.

 

[d4]

Presumably it'd occur if the player is saving their hero points for the fight with the big bad guy later in the session rather than that early henchman. I'm surprised your players spend HPs so freely - if I was playing under a GM who believed the whole group should go through every hero point they've got every session, I certainly wouldn't blow any to offset an unlucky roll against the warm up crew, I'd just laugh it off and let my fellow heroes mop up the bad guys then get on with the rest of the session.

what i've found is that the heroes tend to need/use 2-3 Hero Points in the "warm-up" fights, and then another 2-3 Hero Points against the BBEG at the end of the session. so if you save all your HPs for the final encounter, you're probably going to end the session with some left unspent. since unspent HPs don't carry over from session to session, that's a bit wasteful. why not spend them all?

when i said i expect the PCs to spend all their Hero Points every session, i wasn't implying i was a "killer" GM who throws overwhelming encounters at the heroes. far from it. i expect them to use all their HPs because they're wasted if they go unspent. i think they should be used even for "minor" encounters, and not hoarded only for "CYA" moments. the PCs usually have enough that they can spend their HPs when they want to, instead of only when they think they "need" to.

also, i like to give bonus HPs as opposed to bonus power points for good role-playing, etc.

 

[C. Baize]

Ugh!
Sounds like a bad experience.
Ah well... there's always Blood and Vigilance which my group has loved from the very first session.

 

[Emiricol]

I'd have to agree that HP should be spent every session. 2-3 on the warmups and 2-3 on the BBEG at the end is about right, as someone mentioned earlier. My own experience is about the same.

I've played a number of ongoing campaigns with M&M. My favorite PC started as a PL7 "real world" martial artist and is now a PL13 "mystical" martial artist. But I'm getting off topic.

The heroes in the book suck. They just... suck. Bricks are easy to make, but even Minotaur isn't that optimized and The Original? Forget him.

One thing I've done at my table is to make PCs be created to PL3 first, then add the rest of the points. I have to approve them at PL3 and again at whatever PL the game is going to be played at. Why? To ensure the PCs aren't too one-dimensional.

I also encourage my players not to take more than one power at maximum strength, although I'm not inflexible on that. I am more strict about allowing PCs to have powers above 10 ranks even as the PC goes up in PL, because if I can plan around a base 10 it makes creating bad guys easy.

I've played every superhero RPG I know of, including the D20 variants, and for me, M&M is the one I end up playing.


Oh, and if you want dozens and dozens of pregen characters that you can use as PCs or NPCs, check out the Freedom City PbP link in my sig.

 

[mroberon1972]

Try this:

Allow one power to be at the max power level, but the next two powers have to be a max of PL - 2. The next three powers have to be PL - 4, and the next four have to be PL - 6... You get the idea.

What this does is make sure the character has at least a few weaknesses, and keeps the "I can do anything" problem to a minimum...

Any thoughts?

 

[Emiricol]

Sounds good on the surface. It's a design philosophy I embrace for villains, especially. The real problem with something like that is the powersuiters, who have everything as extras and partial extras off the armor power.

 

[d4]

Sounds good on the surface. It's a design philosophy I embrace for villains, especially. The real problem with something like that is the powersuiters, who have everything as extras and partial extras off the armor power.

i tend to do that for all my characters -- i rarely have a character with more than three distinct powers; i just extra/power stunt everything else off of one of their "base" powers.

 

[The Grackle]

Mutants and Masterminds is a great game, but the archetypes presented in the book are really weak for their PL. Anyone who likes to optimize their characters, and I don't just mean power gamers but any typical roleplayer, could make better/more capable characters. In fact, I noticed that one of the frequently asked questions is "why are the freedom leauge such pushovers?"

I actually like it that my players max out their primary abilities b/c it makes it easier for me to design villains. If I want their foe to have a nasty attack, I set it at rank 13. If his defenses are a little weak compared to the PCs I set it at 8 or 9. It seems to be working out well so far. A few ranks above or below their PL makes a big difference, especially if someone's on a bad rolling streak. When you can get KOed in one punch, rolling a lot of 2s and 3s in one night is a big deal.

Another thing is that bricks are really easy to make and play (and also fun) b/c they fit with a d&d-style of mercilessly beating on things until they're dead. But one superpower can make them totally ineffective (like insubstantial or wisdom drain) so they need someone to watch their back. A super team has to be designed as a team. You definitly need one brick, one mentalist, and one blaster, and hopefully someone with some useful other/non-combat powers. A group of 2 mediocre flying blasters and one average brick won't cut it. If your players had had a mentalist w/mind control, fighting two bricks would not have taken 10 rounds.

If you want to try MnM again, I think you should let your players make their own characters and then test them out against the archetypes they played in your last session. Then they can have sweet, sweet vengence for a ruined gaming night...

emiricol: That's a good idea. I might start making all characters w/a PL 2 or 3 "base" character before adding super powers. I also gave my PCs a permanent power cap of 10 for all powers except one that's their main-power which they can raise to their current PL as they progress. Hopefully it will make them round-out their characters in time, instead of just boosting powers.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

That is a good point - the sample characters they give are kind of weak comparred to what I have seen people put together. Maybe you ought to design a handfull of characters yourself (which helps you learn the system) and give it a try. Then if the players enjoy it they can either keep the characters you made or make their own, helping them better learn the system.