M&M/HERO hybrid system out there?

[Dragonblade]

Has anyone given any thought to a Mutants and Masterminds/HERO fusion? I'm not talking about rules that convert from one system to another, but rather a completely new system that fuses the best mechanics of both to create something completely new.

For example, I like the expanded characteristics of HERO, along with the more complex power creation rules.

But HERO combat is a little too complex and I was hoping to blend the two systems to make a new and unique system. However, I love the way HERO handles different martial arts maneuvers and want to keep that instead of the abstract hit and miss system of d20.

For example:

Attack roll would be d20+OCV vs. 11+DCV and characters could choose different combat maneuvers per standard HERO rules.

However, damage would be more in line with M&M where the DC of the HERO attack would replace the bucketfuls of dice you need to roll in HERO, and be more like the Damage bonus in M&M.

That being said, I don't care for the damage save mechanic and want to keep a HP damage mechanic ala HERO. Only I prefer one more simplified where I don't have to count both STUN and BODY with every die roll. Something akin to the d20 Modern/Star Wars Wound and Vitality system would probably work well.

I also prefer a skill system more like d20 where its a straight d20 roll vs. a target number, etc.

Has anyone worked on anything like this?

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

I'm not trying to be snide (it just comes naturally), but what you're saying is that you want to play Hero, but combats take too long, so you want to use M&M combat, but without all the things that make M&M combats go quickly?

I used to be an avid Hero fanboy. It was my gaming system of choice from 1982 untill 1996. I have about 5 linear feet of Hero books, and this is all before 5th edition came out. That being said, I cannot ever imagine going back to that system now that I have M&M.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm not trying to be snide (it just comes naturally), but what you're saying is that you want to play Hero, but combats take too long, so you want to use M&M combat, but without all the things that make M&M combats go quickly?

I used to be an avid Hero fanboy. It was my gaming system of choice from 1982 untill 1996. I have about 5 linear feet of Hero books, and this is all before 5th edition came out. That being said, I cannot ever imagine going back to that system now that I have M&M.

I'm not quite on the same boat as you. I still enjoy Hero tremendously but there were several eras of Hero that put a real bad taste in my mouth (Fuzion anyone) and I simply had too much vested in the original Champions universe to gain the motivation to start over with this new Champions setting.

 

[swrushing]

if you run a search for super hero games, i think you will find a couple d30 based supers games.. four color to fantasy is a name that comes to mind.

These ought to give you a supers game using hit points to start from.

As to your question, my answer is No. I haven't done such a thing, seen such a thing and frankly would not try it. Just taking one piece, the notion of dropping the MNM save AND dropping the HERo stun/body seems like taking the worst of both. I like the MnM save but if i weren't using that, the stun/body makes a WHOLE lot more sense than the wounds vitality thingy i keep seeing used.

At least, to me.

Has anyone given any thought to a Mutants and Masterminds/HERO fusion? I'm not talking about rules that convert from one system to another, but rather a completely new system that fuses the best mechanics of both to create something completely new.

For example, I like the expanded characteristics of HERO, along with the more complex power creation rules.

But HERO combat is a little too complex and I was hoping to blend the two systems to make a new and unique system. However, I love the way HERO handles different martial arts maneuvers and want to keep that instead of the abstract hit and miss system of d20.

For example:

Attack roll would be d20+OCV vs. 11+DCV and characters could choose different combat maneuvers per standard HERO rules.

However, damage would be more in line with M&M where the DC of the HERO attack would replace the bucketfuls of dice you need to roll in HERO, and be more like the Damage bonus in M&M.

That being said, I don't care for the damage save mechanic and want to keep a HP damage mechanic ala HERO. Only I prefer one more simplified where I don't have to count both STUN and BODY with every die roll. Something akin to the d20 Modern/Star Wars Wound and Vitality system would probably work well.

I also prefer a skill system more like d20 where its a straight d20 roll vs. a target number, etc.

Has anyone worked on anything like this?

 

[Dragonblade]

I have played both HERO and M&M. I find M&M a little too simplified and abstract. I don't like the damage save system and I prefer a little more strategy and resource management in my combat systems. But it is fast. I certainly love the speed. Obviously a hit point system is not going to be as fast as the damage save system, but there is definitely a way to speed up HERO's current system.

HERO combat is just too darn slow. Rolling all those d6's is just a pain in terms of counting the STUN, but then counting the BODY too. And then you have the speed chart, etc.

There has to be a better way. There has to be a way to keep the resource management feel of HERO but speed it up drastically...I'll think about it some more and if I come up with something I'll post it here.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm a HERO OG (Original Gamer) and I, too, hated Fuzion. I think M&M is a pretty nice system, though.

As for a mix of the 2...I already envision M&M as kind of a bridge between D20 and HERO, so I'm not sure that a functional mix would be feasible.

 

[buzz]

But HERO combat is a little too complex and I was hoping to blend the two systems to make a new and unique system. However, I love the way HERO handles different martial arts maneuvers and want to keep that instead of the abstract hit and miss system of d20.

Have you considered HERO Sidekick, which is a "lite" version of HERO? You still have bucketfulls of d6's, but you can always replace them with the (forgive me, as I'm blanking on the right term) standard damage variant, i.e., you do X points for every d6 (3, I think, but I'm not remembering it right now).

I guess my choice would be to streamline HERO, a la Sidekick, rather than trying to complicate M&M. I find M&M to be complicated enough... Not to mention, there's a HP variant right in the M&M core book.

 

[Acid_crash]

Have you considered HERO Sidekick, which is a "lite" version of HERO? You still have bucketfulls of d6's, but you can always replace them with the (forgive me, as I'm blanking on the right term) standard damage variant, i.e., you do X points for every d6 (3, I think, but I'm not remembering it right now).

I guess my choice would be to streamline HERO, a la Sidekick, rather than trying to complicate M&M. I find M&M to be complicated enough... Not to mention, there's a HP variant right in the M&M core book.

When you get the chance, check because I don't have Sidekick yet... but with the flat damage variant, each d6 counts as 3 points, does that work for both normal damage and Killing damage? That would be my question...but if you did change that, then you wouldn't need to roll all those dice and combat would speed up a lot...

Normally, you fire and hit someone with your Fire Blast :EB 10d6 and roll 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 4, 1, 5...add and do 39 Stun and 11 Body...whereas with the flat damage, you know that 10d6 would = 33 Stun and 10 Body. No roll necessary. But this guess and brief example is normal damage. I guess for Killing damage, roll 2d6 KA, so 6 Body, roll for Stun multiplier, get a 4, so 6 Body and 24 Stun. No die rolling necessary, keeps it simple.

And who said no one could simplify HERO

 

[buzz]

And who said no one could simplify HERO

Indeed!

I think that it's always going to be easier to simplify the complex game rather than complicate the simple(r) one. With the former, you just don't use what you don't want. With the latter, you've got to create additions whole cloth.

 

[mmadsen]

And who said no one could simplify HERO

In Streamlining Hero, I derived a simpler Hero, with all stats divided by five and a few stats folded together. Here's how the third-edition Crusader's stats might look under such a system:

Cost       Characteristic Value
  40 (@20) Body               4 -- Str, Con, and Body
  18 (@2)    Toughness +9    13 -- PD and ED
   8 (@2)    Recovery +4     12 -- Rec
     (@.5)   Endurance       40 -- End
     (@1)    Stun            40 -- Stun
     (@1)    Lethal          20 -- Body
  60 (@20) Dexterity          5 -- Dex
  10 (@10)   Speed +1         6 -- Spd
             Offense          5 -- OCV
             Defense          5 -- DCV
  20 (@10) Mind               4 -- Int
             Mental Offense   4 -- EOCV
             Mental Defense   4 -- EDCV
   0 (@10) Soul               2 -- Ego and Pre
             Mental Toughness 2 -- Mental Defense

Of course, if you ditch Endurance and replace the current damage system with an M&M-style Damage Save (Damage Class vs. Toughness), it gets even simpler:

Cost       Characteristic Value
  40 (@20) Body               4 -- Str, Con, and Body
  18 (@2)    Toughness +9    13 -- PD and ED
  60 (@20) Dexterity          5 -- Dex
  10 (@10)   Speed +1         6 -- Spd
             Offense          5 -- OCV
             Defense          5 -- DCV
  20 (@10) Mind               4 -- Int
             Mental Offense   4 -- EOCV
             Mental Defense   4 -- EDCV
   0 (@10) Soul               2 -- Ego and Pre
             Mental Toughness 2 -- Mental Defense

(Of course, I might then reduce point cost for a Body stat that no longer includes End, Rec, Stun, etc. and increase the cost of a Toughness stat that includes Body and Stun -- perhaps Body @15, Toughness @10, and "pure" Strength @5)