M&M2e: No HP!? What were they thinking?

[Denaes]

Yeah, actually it is, as it utilizes the d20 System core mechanic whereas World of Darkness does not.Is this the point where I point out that technically no, it's not a d20 game at all?]

Of course, I've used both sides of that argument on occasion. But despite the fact that it is indeed heavily built off of a d20 chassis, M&M is technically not a d20 game.

M&M isn't d20, it's OGL.

It does use the d20 core mechanic just as jdrakeh says.

So technically it's a moot point as to wether or not it's d20 or OGL or based on, etc - which bears no relevence to this thread. Arguing semantics isn't going to accomplish anything than feeding someones need to argue a pointless point.

 

[Jim Hague]

So, let me get this straight - you've got 1st Ed MnM, and your friend is unhappy because there's no HP sidebar in 2nd. Why not just use the sidebar from 1st? The system hasn't changed that much, and really not at all in regards to the Damage/Toughness save. Plus, 2nd edition is roughly twice the content of 1st, for the same price.

Yeah, 'irrational' is one way to put it...

 

[Desdichado]

M&M isn't d20, it's OGL.

It does use the d20 core mechanic just as jdrakeh says.

Yes. Thank you. You just restated exactly what I said in the post above yours.

So technically it's a moot point as to wether or not it's d20 or OGL or based on, etc - which bears no relevence to this thread. Arguing semantics isn't going to accomplish anything than feeding someones need to argue a pointless point.

I realize that it's a bit point, but if the point was made (and it was) that a d20 game should have hit points while a non-d20 game (World of Darkness and Shadowrun being the specific examples given) doesn't necessarily need to, then it's not at all irrelevent, IMO. A big part of the reason M&M is OGL instead of d20 is so that it can alter some of the basic character creation rules and whatnot, including the use of a damage save instead of hit points.

If you want to argue that they went too far with those changes, and the game would be better if it were more like "standard" d20, then I'd disagree with that, but that's a fine opinion to have. But that's a completely different argument that hasn't been made in the thread yet, I don't think.

 

[Denaes]

Yes. Thank you. You just restated exactly what I said in the post above yours.

I realize that it's a bit point, but if the point was made (and it was) that a d20 game should have hit points while a non-d20 game (World of Darkness and Shadowrun being the specific examples given) doesn't necessarily need to, then it's not at all irrelevent, IMO. A big part of the reason M&M is OGL instead of d20 is so that it can alter some of the basic character creation rules and whatnot, including the use of a damage save instead of hit points.

If you want to argue that they went too far with those changes, and the game would be better if it were more like "standard" d20, then I'd disagree with that, but that's a fine opinion to have. But that's a completely different argument that hasn't been made in the thread yet, I don't think.

I'm not saying that GR should have it in the core book because it's d20 related or OGL or because they should want to have some conversion compatability to other d20/OGL products. I'm not saying they should appeal to HP because they're basing a game on d20 mechanics and they want to appeal to D&D/d20 audiences or even that they should have it "just because"

I'm only bringing it up because they had the option in M&M1e. It's not there in M&M2e. Thats the only point. Nothing else.

Ironically as a side point, oWoD (not sure about new) and Shadowrun (3rd and prior) had HPs. It was a set amount (rarely more/less) with penalities, but it shared the same core premis of HPs.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm only bringing it up because they had the option in M&M1e. It's not there in M&M2e. Thats the only point. Nothing else.

Well, that may have been your only point. It wasn't the only point in the thread. I was responding directly to jdrakeh.

 

[philreed]

You do realize that 2nd edition contains a heck of a lot more game info right? 64 pages, and that doesn't count all the optional rules that were defered, not scrapped, but deferred until the Manual comes out with all of the optional rules at one time.

And look at the chapter headers in 1e compared to 2e. While the 1e design was very nice 2e uses a lot more of the space for the game.

 

[takyris]

TEATEMPESTPOT

Given the number of official d20 Superhero games out there that do use hit points, I don't think the market is dying or that GR has turned its back on anyone. I, for example, found the hit point rules a waste of time. I didn't pick up M&M to use hit points, and I'm happy to have more space there for other stuff. It makes complete sense to have those house rules in another book, ideally one for GMs that has lots of possible variant rules.

 

[Ranger REG]

Yeah, 'irrational' is one way to put it...

Mmm. "Irrational" is an understatement. Try another adjective.

My adjective starts with a letter "B" and ends with an "itch."

* Damn Morrus, where's my sinister devil smiley! *

 

[jdrakeh]

Is this the point where I point out that technically no, it's not a d20 game at all?

Sure, but if you have to resort to using semantics to bolster your position (which you have), the argument is already over

But despite the fact that it is indeed heavily built off of a d20 chassis, M&M is technically not a d20 game.

Techncially, it is isn't - but only because it doesn't bear the d20 System logo. Which brings us back to semantics and the fact that this argument has long since passsed the point of being useful.

Would you care to get back on topic and address the points that I raised, or continue to beat the technicality drum in vain hopes of side-tracking the thread by introducing totally irrelevant semantics?

 

[Jim Hague]

Mmm. "Irrational" is an understatement. Try another adjective.

My adjective starts with a letter "B" and ends with an "itch."

* Damn Morrus, where's my sinister devil smiley! *

Yeah, but I'm trying to be nice while underscoring the sheer 'whatha?!' of reading that. Like I said - things haven't changed so much that the 1e HP system couldn't be used. MnM 2nd went with the usual, most popular options in the mainbook, with other optional stuff sent to the Mastermind's Manual. Complaining about that is akin to asking why there's not Arcana Unearthed (or is it Unearth Arcana?) options in the PHB.