M&M2e: No HP!? What were they thinking?

[jdrakeh]

At least the game is faithful to the franchise

Unless you're talking about the comics, which had a nasty habit of frequently maiming or killing off iconic characters (both heroes and villains). The comic series was much different than the televeision series (in fact, it had quite a bit in common with Clancy novels where political conspiracies were concerned).

 

[Desdichado]

Morrus considers rolleyes as offensive.

I know that very well, RR. My point is, showing up and saying that Green Ronin is arrogant for not putting in a particular alternate rule really deserves that response.

Despite Henry's glare, I seriously can't imagine how this is not a troll, unless as EditorBFG is right and the original poster--and his entire gaming group--where just spectacularly misinformed about what Mutants & Masterminds is supposed to accomplish.

 

[Henry]

Despite Henry's glare, I seriously can't imagine how this is not a troll, unless as EditorBFG is right and the original poster--and his entire gaming group--where just spectacularly misinformed about what Mutants & Masterminds is supposed to accomplish.

I think that's closer to the mark - this particular gamer of Denaes' group saw a great toolkit book, when GR really only took a minor scrape to the "toolkit" idea (there's maybe a dozen sidebars total in the book, I think?) What GR did find, I am totally assuming, is that very few gamers they met used 1 for 1 skill points, the Hit Point Variant, the Damage Roll veriant, etc. and decided it would be better to shuttle those to a later product. Heck, you can even see where they took some of the variant rules and made them the real thing! (The skill points immediately jumps out at me).

The number of people they upset by removing Hit point rules to make room for a better description of Shapeshift, for instance, is probably worth the risk versus the number of people kissing their feet for giving them those solid shapeshift rules.

 

[teitan]

M&M used the damage save and had like a side bar for using HP. Heck, from what my friend told me (I havn't touched M&M) it had sidebars and optional rules for many things. It was a toolkit book that made it suitable for many things.

He got M&M2e yesterday and kept complaining that they destroyed the game and made it into just... and I quote this: "just another bland @** super hero game by taking out the toolkit approach that made M&M good to begin with"

Another player says that there will be another book to give it the basic fucntionality M&M had and thats when my friend when livid at having to buy another $20+ (probobly $30 or $40) to get basic use out of M&M2e.

My response was "It's a supers game, they have everything in there for SUPERS".

Regardless half our group refuses to play Damage Save becuase they are married to HPs. They think it's "Fing Retarded" (to use another quote) to hit your opponent, maybe even crit... and then deal no damage. My response was that it was "Fing Retarded" that a 5th level character with HP will never die from a single "lethal" blow (just because I'm always the Devil's advocate and like to argue).

I understand both have their pro's and con's in terms how life is represented.

I personally find it an awful (and probobly arrogant) move for Green Ronin to leave out the HP option when they know that so many gamers won't use the Damage Save. It's like they're saying "Well... the Damage Save is popular now... we have True20 and people like M&M.... so rather than spend that .5-2 pages on HPs the majority of RPG players can buy a seperate book to make use of M&M.

My friend insists that M&M2e is unplayable for us right now and I insist he's a drama queen since the Damage Save is pretty much the same as M&M1e & True20 and we have the HP conversions for both of those, thus we have the HP conversions for M&M2e.

I think it's more of a morals/pride issue at having the parts of the book he liked stripped down and put into another book he has to buy. Which he might not. He's thinking of selling M&M2e or someting.

::Shrugs::

I think it's just foolish not to include a small conversion for something so popular.

I think it is pretty darn universal that the Damage save was A) M&M's BIGGEST innovation and B) the majority's default in using the system and I mean VAST majority. It emulates the genre way better than Hit Points ever could.

 

[teitan]

So let me get this straight... you guys complaining about the lack of an HP option... do you think that the World of Darkness should have Hit Point options? What about SHadowrun? Star Wars D6? Why should M&M have it? Sure, it is D20 based but it isn't a D20 game anymore than the World of Darkness. Similar, yes, but not the same.

 

[Denaes]

So let me get this straight... you guys complaining about the lack of an HP option... do you think that the World of Darkness should have Hit Point options? What about SHadowrun? Star Wars D6? Why should M&M have it? Sure, it is D20 based but it isn't a D20 game anymore than the World of Darkness. Similar, yes, but not the same.

Because M&M 1e had the option is the only reason I'd expect it to be there.

If for some reason M&M had no HP option in any way, the guys I game with wouldn't play it. They tried damage save and they don't like it.

 

[Kylara]

You do realize that 2nd edition contains a heck of a lot more game info right? 64 pages, and that doesn't count all the optional rules that were defered, not scrapped, but deferred until the Manual comes out with all of the optional rules at one time. That is the tool box book. The optionals were left out of the corebook and put into a book that should be out by December at the latest according to Nicole Lindroos. I think your group needs some Jedi meditations or something.

 

[Denaes]

Look, I like the Damage Save. It's fun. But thats as a player. I don't know how well I'd like it in a non-campy non-lethal game. The chance that PCs could die in a blow would worry me (hero points or no).

The group I play with has tried the Damage Save and dislikes it... intensely. I think the reason why is a little silly, but that's not here nor there.

I'm also a little frustrated at the reason why my friend rejects M&M2e so irrationally - because they didn't print the half page of text he has in two other books. Thats silly. It doesn't effect him on any level. I can only assume it effected him on some moral level. Thats the reason I posted this. I was frustrated at hearing him bitch all night to different people and basically talk smack about the game that he spent like 15 minutes looking at saying "It's the same book, nothing has changed except they took out the HP's and other options!"

Also it's our right to wonder where the HP are. It's something that was in M&M1e and isn't in M&M2e. Thats reason for someone who's purchased both games to gripe about if they expected it to be there.

It's not in the least like anyone is complaining that they didn't add a Damage Save option with the 3.5 D&D Core Books (I know they added something similar in the options book). It was never there before and you had no reason to expect it mysteriously poping up in 3.5.

It's not like people are stunned that BESM d20's point buy system isn't in M&M. Why would it be?

An option for HPs was included in M&M and for whatever reason they left it out (to put in another book, because HPs suck, because DS is successful and they don't need a backup option) it doesn't matter. What matters is that it was in M&M1e and it's not in M&M2e.

There really isn't anything to be gained by telling me that my group should embrace Damage Saves because they're good or that HPs didn't exist in 1e (!?). I've vented my piece about my friend and what little I cared about GR leaving things out of 2e, which was the point of me making this thread... that and me hoping that there was an online HP conversion for 2e that would shut my friend up about it

 

[jdrakeh]

So let me get this straight... you guys complaining about the lack of an HP option...

I'm not necessarily complaining about the lack of Hit Points, but the apparent lack of other options in the core rulebook that were once there.

do you think that the World of Darkness should have Hit Point options? What about SHadowrun? Star Wars D6?

He never made that argument, nor has anybody else on this thread. Note that none of those games has ever contained an optional Hit Point rule, where M&M has.

Why should M&M have it?

M&M did have it, but the new edition doesn't - expecting something that appeared in previous editions to exist in subsequent editions is not particulalry unreasonable.

Sure, it is D20 based but it isn't a D20 game anymore than the World of Darkness.

Yeah, actually it is, as it utilizes the d20 System core mechanic whereas World of Darkness does not.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, actually it is, as it utilizes the d20 System core mechanic whereas World of Darkness does not.

Is this the point where I point out that technically no, it's not a d20 game at all?

Of course, I've used both sides of that argument on occasion. But despite the fact that it is indeed heavily built off of a d20 chassis, M&M is technically not a d20 game.