Magic and sanitation

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Bearing in mind that waste is a resource for building soil, I think it's not unlikely that some druid circle (the Circle of Waste?) takes charge of it, converting it into enhanced fertility for the surrounding lands.

Or the harvest god's clergy. (Who really ought to be more prominent in most D&D worlds than the usual suspects.)

 

[Celebrim]

Or the harvest god's clergy. (Who really ought to be more prominent in most D&D worlds than the usual suspects.)

Another pet peeve is D&D pantheons composed of deities no one would worship and who just plug into PC driven niches like "the god of thieves", "the god of fighters", "the god of paladins", "the god of magic users", "the god of druids', and even "the god of clerics" (side-eyes Lathlander).

 

[Celebrim]

Just imagine exploring a sewer and running into a gelatinous cube filled with all kinds of undigested "waste".

At least it would be easier to see.

 

[the Jester]

At least it would be easier to see.

That lining is not silver!

 

[kigmatzomat]

Just wanted to make a note of how much it infuriates me as a GM when authors write spells entirely based on how useful they think they would be in a dungeon environment to solve dungeon exploration problems and pay absolutely no attention at all to the economic consequences of their creation.

Yeah, totally agree. AFAIK, earthDawn is the only system that ever leaned into the prevalence of magic. (Of course, in ED magic is actually fading away from the high point where eldritch horrors roam the earth torturing anything & everything for fun & profit)

There has never been anything particular in the rules of D&D that said that anything prevented average intelligence people from learning spells except time and education. Wizards aren't sorcerers; they don't need to be born special. In a world that can train wizards, virtually everyone has access to 1st level magic - say 50% or more of the population. If magic has that massive of an economic benefit, then societies would quickly gravitate towards a universal magical education system. Any society that didn't would be overwhelmed by the ones that did. IF you make economically powerful magic common, it implies nothing should be familiar about the resulting world.

Even if you did need something extra (Ala Earthdawn "adept") where characters with class levels are special people, any "1 in X people are* special" ratio has the implicit asterisk of "*actually, 1 in X find out they are special. Some fall through the cracks". A kind of universal magic test, even if it only added 1 more caster/year, would almost automatically be worth it.

And there should be massive incentives for all special people to take at least one caster level or a caster-emulating feat. I mean, if 1/2 classes are casters, by incentivizing caster multiclassing, you could double the casters.

The societal benefits from other cantrips (shape water, guidance, mending, resistance, spare the dying) are immense.

Resistance & Spare the dying are on par with an ICU. They keep you alive and gives you a chance to fight off diseases, poisons. It would justify a level of state sponsorship of multiple religions to have adequate people available to provide basic services.

Guidance is like half-proficiency or an 8-level boost to an artisan. I would say on the whole it doesn't really help make better items but it would help reduce the number of failures, which is often a bigger drain on productivity.

Mending requires no materials or tools, forge, fuel, needle, glues, etc) and only takes a minute.

Shape water is less awe inspiring than mold earth, but it is 1,000 gallons of precision fire fighting. Really more like 3000gal, as a single watershaper could keep 3 block of "ice" in any cart able to hold them (no tank required), then animate them into the fire. (Note a firetruck has 500-1,000gal of water, so this is like 3 pump trucks from one shaper) (and even an earthshaper isn't bad at stopping fires, and can level blocks if need be to stop a conflagration)

From a productivity stand point, watershapers are a powerful pump, enabling mining in areas that would otherwise flood. They could create water pressure by filling roof mounted cisterns.

Imagine the city that has hired one each: Earthshaper, Watershaper, Mender, and Deathwatch for the public good. Their buildings are better built and last longer. Same goes for their tools. Their roads are in fantastic shape. There is rarely flooding. Few otherwise healthy people die of illness.

They are far more productive per capita as so much labor-intensive work is handled by a few people. Skilled workers are able to ply their trade longer (on average). A mill district is powered by 12,000lb blocks of mobile dirt and 8,000lb blobs of mobile water. Complicated machines remain functioning longer.

The city defenses are simple in construction but also large in scale. Fire weapons used on the city don't have the same impact. The moats and berms are backed by trebuchets that fire at ridiculous speeds as tons of earthen or liquid counter weights shift about at great speed. In some cases the trebuchets fire ice-missiles that don't even give the attackers ammunition for their own weapons.

All this from cantrips.

Let's just say that my game world never quite looks like what the dnd art looks like. Lots of 4th or 5th level characters retire to live a life of luxury at Smartsylvania, who only asks that they work a few days a week and help out during emergencies.

 

[Celebrim]

All this from cantrips.

Most of this from unlimited cantrips of pretty recent origin in the canon. And the notion of unlimited magic only shows up in Pathfinder and recent editions of D&D. If a 1st level caster is limited to like 4 cantrips a day and those cantrips have much less profound economic impact, you don't end up with the same problem. You do have some economic impact, and there are some higher level spells down the line that need watching or regulating, but the barely competent magic user no longer is capable of doing the work of hundreds of peasant laborers in most earlier versions of D&D.

If a magic-user can cast an attack spell at will it's not nearly as disruptive as if they can perform meaningful economic activity at will. The failure to even consider the impact of that just means I will never adopt those more recent systems. Systems need to describe the imagined world the way it is. When you introduce something like move earth, and you have a world where its not a team of horses plowing the field but low level magic-users, then you need to construct the setting accordingly. You want to make a world like Avatar the Last Airbender with earth bending and water bending? Fine. But be explicit about that. Otherwise, I'm just going to assume you are incompotent.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, the push to have unlimited cantrips wasn't meant as a world-building thing, so much as it feels better than forcing the wizard to also be good with a crossbow or sling, but it definitely has knock-on effects for what the rest of the world would logically look like.

 

[Celebrim]

Yeah, the push to have unlimited cantrips wasn't meant as a world-building thing, so much as it feels better than forcing the wizard to also be good with a crossbow or sling, but it definitely has knock-on effects for what the rest of the world would logically look like.

I would have no problem with a wizard that essentially had a sling with unlimited ammunition that had the color of magic for the poor hard-hit players who don't feel like they are magical enough when they can't use spells an unlimited number of times per day, bless their hearts.

I would have little problem with a wizard being able to use 'prestidigitation' type effects at will provided care is take to make sure those don't actually have economic impact (watch out for something like 'flavor').

Spoiler

Prestidigitation
Universal
Level: Brd 0, Sha 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: 1 hour
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
Prestidigitation is actually a collection of very simple and basic spells, which can be cast repeatedly, quickly and without strain, and used in combination by a creative magician to create an almost endless variety of effects.

Although you cannot use prestidigitation to change an item’s actual properties, you can use prestidigitation to slightly alter how something appears and is perceived. You can alter the color, taste, odor, and feel of an object as long as it remains in range. These changes are superficial and obvious to a trained eye, but can fool casual inspection or less keen observers. The effect of this is to give up to a -5 penalty on attempts on skill checks to appraise, detect or analyze an object, depending on the suitability of the change. For example, making a bit of clear glass appear to be a diamond, or making a bit of bad wine taste like good wine are very suitable changes.

Prestidigitation can be used to move items weighing up to a pound slowly, at the rate of 5’ per round. Light weight ropes can be ordered to knot or unknot themselves, allowing certain use rope checks to be made at a distance. It can also be used in this way to move dust or dirt off or on to objects or separate and sweep light objects into piles. Items occupying up to 1 cubic foot can be cleaned, soiled, or gathered in this way per round. Alternately, very light weight objects such as raindrops can be held at bay, as an umbrella of force. This screen is however insufficient to seriously impede actual missiles or even hurled stones. Prestidigitation can be used to move the air and create slight drafts or breezes similar to that created by a hand fan. It may also be used to slightly chill or warm a small object, but never enough to create pain or injury. By creating cooling or warming breezes and other minor alteration of the environment the spell caster may grant up to a +2 circumstance bonus on any endurance checks provoked during the duration of the spell as a result of the elements. Because of the weakness of the spell, this bonus can be extended to at most the caster and one other person.

Prestidigitation can be used to teleport fine sized objects about ones person, for example, from one hand to another, from a hand to a pouch or back again, and so forth. It is commonly used for retrieving pinches of spell components from their hiding places.

Additionally, prestidigitation can be used to create small objects – usually no bigger than what can be held in a palm - out of thin air. These objects may appear like anything, but are easily recognized as artificial if held and inspected. They have no significant weight, cannot bear more than a pound of force, have no hardness, no hit points, and automatically fail any break checks. They may however be used to engage in any action that doesn’t require significant force, so for example largely functional needles, magnifying or reading glasses, cups, toothpicks, sponges, hats, quill pens, paper for temporary notes, spoons, and other small tools that are not used with great force can be created. At the end of the spell or whenever they leave range, the objects vanish.

When using prestidigitation to create an appropriate effect, the spell caster may gain a bonus of between +1 and +3 to various skill checks - most obviously bluff, craft, disguise, hide, open lock, perform, sleight of hand, and use rope. The spell caster must explain how the effect he is creating helps in this particular situation, with highly appropriate explanations receiving higher bonuses at the DM’s discretion.

But unlimited at will magic in general is just bad for the game. The knock-on effects don't just hit what the world would logically look like, but also to how games play out generally.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I would have no problem with a wizard that essentially had a sling with unlimited ammunition that had the color of magic for the poor hard-hit players who don't feel like they are magical enough when they can't use spells an unlimited number of times per day, bless their hearts.

I would have little problem with a wizard being able to use 'prestidigitation' type effects at will provided case is take to make sure those don't actually have economic impact (watch out for something like 'flavor').

But unlimited at will magic in general is just bad for the game. The knock-on effects don't just hit what the world would logically look like, but also to how games play out generally.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to let the cat halfway out of the bag. Once you had crossbow bolt-quality cantrip zaps and prestidigitation as at-will magic, everyone else danced into the room with their copies of Unearthed Arcana and said "OK, so all of these can be at-will, too?"

It was inevitable, in retrospect, that magic would go all over. And that's not even counting the influence of fantasy fiction, movies, comics and especially anime, where the current generation of gamers are seeing ubiquitous magic as just the way fantasy looks and feels. Appendix N includes a lot of stuff modern gamers have never read and may even find almost impossible to get their hands on.

I am routinely shocked and saddened when contestants on Um, Actually -- including major D&D nerds like Brennan Lee Mulligan and Matt Mercer -- are unfamiliar with classic fantasy novels that originally shaped Dungeons & Dragons. If they've never read those books -- or even heard of them, in some cases -- I don't think we can expect the game's baselines to remain in sync with them.

 

[Alzrius]

But unlimited at will magic in general is just bad for the game. The knock-on effects don't just hit what the world would logically look like, but also to how games play out generally.

At the risk of introducing a buzzword into the discussion, this is why simulationism is an important consideration to maintain in terms of game design, as it dovetails strongly with world-building. While there are absolutely aspects that almost everyone is fine with ignoring (e.g. market forces and related economics), other areas of "how things work" (particularly when it comes to fantastical elements) lend themselves easier to exploitation by innovative players, which often results in them being labeled as troublemakers, which I think is a shame since it can run counter to the sort of imagination that RPGs should encourage.