D&D 5E Magic Damage Obsolescence and the Void of Uitility Magic

[Minigiant]

Since 5th is the first D&D where spells don't naturally scale with caster level nor have intended trade in levels AND has at will magic, at certain character level a spell slot of a low level might not be effective for damage and damage spells become obsolete.

I want to know if my observations are correct.

• Going by the damage of spells described in the PHB and inferred in the DMG, damage based slot spells become mostly obsolete to damage cantrips for pure damage at certain levels.
  • a single target cantrip makes a single target 1st level damage spell obsolete at level 5.
  • a single target cantrip makes a single target 2nd level damage spell obsolete at level 11.
  • a single target cantrip doesn't make a single target 2rd level damage spell obsolete at level 17 but it's close to.
  • a mutli target cantrip makes a multi target 1st level damage spell obsolete at level 5.
  • a multi target cantrip doesn't make a multi target 2nd level damage spell obsolete at level 11 but it's close to.
  • a multi target cantrip makes a multi target 2nd level damage spell obsolete at level 17.
• This is not counting the increasing HP of monsters by CR not the increasing area of enemies due to the growing budget.
• Just by going on Cantrip Damage Obsolescence at level 5
  • A full caster has 4 obsolete spell slots at 1st level for damage if it has a damage cantrip of the same type
    • This leaves 5 non-obsolete slots of the 2nd and 3rd levels for utility and effects.
      • land druids, sorcerers, and wizards can get 1 more non-obsolete slots
  • A half caster has 4 obsolete spell slots at 1st level for damage if it has a damage cantrip of the same type.
    • They don't have cantrips naturally
    • This leaves 2 spell non-obsolete 2nd slots for utility and effects.
  • A third caster has 3 obsolete spell slots at 1st level for damage if it has a damage cantrip of the same type.
    • This is all their spells
  • A full pact mage has no obsolete spell slots
  • A 2/5ths pact mage has all obsolete spell slots
  • A full ki user has 2 of kie remaining for obsolete spell slots at 1st level for damage if it has a damage cantrip of the same type and casted an non-obsolete spell.

The gist of it, don't homebrew AOE contrips. It make low level spell slots obsolete fast.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Single-target damaging spells aren't too attractive to half-casters, to begin with, since they generally have pretty good weapon damage potential.

Aside from that, yeah, some low-level spells aren't worth using in a very low level slot at higher level, especially if you have a cantrip that does as much or more damage, but just in general because hps scale fairly quickly, and there are other kinds of spells than single-target damage that you can cast with those low-level slots. A wizard might not bother casting Magic Missile at high level, but having several throwaway slots available to cast Shield isn't a bad thing, just for one obvious instance.

 

[Minigiant]

Single-target damaging spells aren't too attractive to half-casters, to begin with, since they generally have pretty good weapon damage potential.

Aside from that, yeah, some low-level spells aren't worth using in a very low level slot at higher level, especially if you have a cantrip that does as much or more damage, but just in general because hps scale fairly quickly, and there are other kinds of spells than single-target damage that you can cast with those low-level slots. A wizard might not bother casting Magic Missile at high level, but having several throwaway slots available to cast Shield isn't a bad thing, just for one obvious instance.

Indeed.
This however does how some of the hidden design of 5th.

For example people say sorcerer doesn't have enough sorcery points. Well at level 5, a sorcerer can convert all their 1st level slots into points as the slots are obsolete for damage and sorcerers don't have many utility spells.

 

[TerraDave]

Some spells obviously age worse then others..as 1st level spells. But if some one is hard to hit, magic missile (in a higher slot) may still be good. Want to get some enemies away from you, thunderwave could still work, again at a higher level slot.

On the other hand, I see lots of evergreen 1st level spells, especially with the way save DCs work. faery fire, charm person, entangle, hold person,..or the defensive spells. Shield is so evergreen, and something like protection good/evil could actually be better in higher level games. As a first level spell.

 

[CapnZapp]

Indeed.
This however does how some of the hidden design of 5th.

For example people say sorcerer doesn't have enough sorcery points. Well at level 5, a sorcerer can convert all their 1st level slots into points as the slots are obsolete for damage and sorcerers don't have many utility spells.

Good point.

I'd say you still get a lot of good use out of level 1 spells at level 5, and would change it to "at level eleven" myself.

But good point nonetheless.

 

[Minigiant]

Some spells obviously age worse then others..as 1st level spells. But if some one is hard to hit, magic missile (in a higher slot) may still be good. Want to get some enemies away from you, thunderwave could still work, again at a higher level slot.

On the other hand, I see lots of evergreen 1st level spells, especially with the way save DCs work. faery fire, charm person, entangle, hold person,..or the defensive spells. Shield is so evergreen, and something like protection good/evil could actually be better in higher level games. As a first level spell.

True
But I'm taking about slots not the spell.
1st level damage spells are still useful for damage but you have to cast them with 2nd level or greater spell slots.

Think of it in 4th edition terms.
At level 5, your 1st level slots go from being attack power slots to utility power slots.

Utility and defense spells and cantrips are evergreen in any slot. Attack spells age poorly except for AOE and often it isn't worth it. It is a sneaky form of balance that keeps down a casters reserve.

 

[the Jester]

A couple of things.

Since 5th is the first D&D where spells don't naturally scale with caster level nor have intended trade in levels AND has at will magic, at certain character level a spell slot of a low level might not be effective for damage and damage spells become obsolete.

I want to know if my observations are correct.

• Going by the damage of spells described in the PHB and inferred in the DMG, damage based slot spells become mostly obsolete to damage cantrips for pure damage at certain levels.
  • a single target cantrip makes a single target 1st level damage spell obsolete at level 5.

• • 
    
    A single target cantrip goes up to 2dx at 5th, and almost always has a to hit roll or save to negate. A 1st level spell that targets one creature tends to do 3d8 and usually involves a save for half, not to negate (although attack roll spells remain potentially all-or-nothing). So I don't think I agree that they're obsolete so quickly. Additionally, they are more tactically effective in that they tend to have more flexibility- chromatic orb lets you avoid energy resistance or immunity, for instance.
    
    

    The gist of it, don't homebrew AOE contrips. It make low level spell slots obsolete fast.

    
    Mostly agreed, though I'd add that a really low-damage AoE cantrip with a really small AoE can be okay; I've done a cantrip conversion of the 4e wizard at-will scorching burst that does 1d4 damage, for instance. That's pretty clearly a "just softens them up" cantrip that only a very specific situation makes optimal.
    
    Also, remember that 5e enables low-level monsters as enemies at higher levels better than any version of D&D since 2e.

 

[TerraDave]

True
But I'm taking about slots not the spell.
1st level damage spells are still useful for damage but you have to cast them with 2nd level or greater spell slots.

Think of it in 4th edition terms.
At level 5, your 1st level slots go from being attack power slots to utility power slots.

Utility and defense spells and cantrips are evergreen in any slot. Attack spells age poorly except for AOE and often it isn't worth it. It is a sneaky form of balance that keeps down a casters reserve.

Sure, mostly agree. I mean, I guess the whole point was to keep magic interesting but still balance it, and they got much closer then other editions to that. But I do think hat until you are really high level, you will get stuff out of low level slots.

You can compare it to 3E, where the balance was very explicit on low level slots, and spells, basically becoming worthless...and it still wasn't balanced.

 

[Celtavian]

I like that they set up low level slots to become used for defensive and utility spells, while higher level slots are used for offense. You have more low level slots than high level, you'll be using things like shield and bless at the highest levels. Nice design choice by the designers. I like casters having useful at will magic with limited higher power magic.

 

[Minigiant]

A couple of things.



A single target cantrip goes up to 2dx at 5th, and almost always has a to hit roll or save to negate. A 1st level spell that targets one creature tends to do 3d8 and usually involves a save for half, not to negate (although attack roll spells remain potentially all-or-nothing). So I don't think I agree that they're obsolete so quickly. Additionally, they are more tactically effective in that they tend to have more flexibility- chromatic orb lets you avoid energy resistance or immunity, for instance.

Actually 1st level slot single target damages averages to 2d10 (11 damage). Multi target is 2d6. A single target cantrip starts at 1d10 and hits 2d10 at level 5. You get a 25% increase of damage if there is no save for half.

So at level 5, your cantrip outdamages your 1st level spells with saves. The damage becomes purely for "chip damage" and AOE which helps only if you outlevel your individual foes by a lot.

Mostly agreed, though I'd add that a really low-damage AoE cantrip with a really small AoE can be okay; I've done a cantrip conversion of the 4e wizard at-will scorching burst that does 1d4 damage, for instance. That's pretty clearly a "just softens them up" cantrip that only a very specific situation makes optimal.

Also, remember that 5e enables low-level monsters as enemies at higher levels better than any version of D&D since 2e.

I converted scorching blast as well. I had the area increase with level.