Magic for the Masses, An Age of Industrial Enlightenment

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Actaully, in the real world, giftedness offcially begins at 130 (mathematical reasons: 2 standard deviations), and covers exactly 2.5% of humanity.

Alright. Thought it was 140, as that's what I needed.

Turning IQ into Int the way you suggest gives the problems at the low end: by your reasoning, IQ50 would equal Int 0, which is obviously wrong.

I would stop at Int 3, which is an IQ of around 65, which would mean the character is mentally challenged, but still more than a 30.

Int below 3 needn't be considered, as that's animal level. (Or at least chimp level. Chimps are supposedly as smart as 5 year old human children.)

As for an Int11 bad guy being too dumb: given that the average IQ of university students is just below 120 (Int12 in my reckoning), I think he'd be doing ok; most illegal work does not require a degree.

But Gotti was the boss, and smarter than most of his mobsters. Gotti didn't have a degree, that's pretty rare in a mobster, but intelligence includes more than just education. He certainly demonstrated it by staying ahead of the police for quite a while. (He did get caught in the end though. Relying on people who can't keep their mouths closed was some sort of character flaw with him.)

By my reckoning, a typical university student would need an Int 14, which is getting rare in 3d6 random rolls system, but so many people have university degrees these days. It's certainly something for me to think about.

As regarding this thread, these magic crafters are essentially university students. Their tests might require a series of Intelligence checks (say, one per month or year) that a person with Int 12 or 14 would make half the time, and they need to make half those checks to pass. That would over time weed out those who don't measure up, even if they could (within the rules) be able to cast very low-level spells.

On another note, I'm recalling a feat in Forgotten Realms for the people of Halruua, a magical human nation. There's a "background" feat that requires Int 10 and lets you cast a few cantrips. Somewhere it said a third of the population had it. (Since half the population has Int 10 or more, one wonders why more don't have it.)

 

[MDK]

Alright. Thought it was 140, as that's what I needed.

Mensa requires 140? That's new to me.

I would stop at Int 3, which is an IQ of around 65, which would mean the character is mentally challenged, but still more than a 30.

Int below 3 needn't be considered, as that's animal level. (Or at least chimp level. Chimps are supposedly as smart as 5 year old human children.)

Need not be considdered is where things go wrong, you do know that right?
But even so, someone with IQ65 (int 3 by your reckoning) is rather smarter than a chimp.

But Gotti was the boss, and smarter than most of his mobsters. Gotti didn't have a degree, that's pretty rare in a mobster, but intelligence includes more than just education. He certainly demonstrated it by staying ahead of the police for quite a while. (He did get caught in the end though. Relying on people who can't keep their mouths closed was some sort of character flaw with him.)

I didn't mean to say intelligence requires (formal) education, it doesn't. I mentioned university to convey a feeling for the numbers; as common as Int18 wizards may be in adventuring parties, when you look at the population as a whole, such people are RARE, even if we use your conversion mechanism, and that has consequences when you're trying to build a magic-based society.

As regarding this thread, these magic crafters are essentially university students. Their tests might require a series of Intelligence checks (say, one per month or year) that a person with Int 12 or 14 would make half the time, and they need to make half those checks to pass. That would over time weed out those who don't measure up, even if they could (within the rules) be able to cast very low-level spells.

Yup. Like I said, I doubt even 1 in 5 people would be casters, even in a society where such an institute was open to all.

[/quote]On another note, I'm recalling a feat in Forgotten Realms for the people of Halruua, a magical human nation. There's a "background" feat that requires Int 10 and lets you cast a few cantrips. Somewhere it said a third of the population had it. (Since half the population has Int 10 or more, one wonders why more don't have it.)[/QUOTE]

Inclination again I'd assume: even if you have the ability, that doesn't mean you have the interest. Or the opportunity for that matter. Even in todays society there are people not taking an education because they've been led to believe learning is for whimps, or because they had reason to get a (easy) job instead.

 

[Dozen]

Their culture (well, the feel of it anyway) is a cross between klinong and mongolian nomads.

I wish I had the right to take offense to that last one. Sadly I can only confirm>.> Moving on...

And yes, this means no race is inherently evil, but they DO have certain tendencies, partly inborn, partly from culture.

Now hold that thought for a moment. Plenty of dragons and outsiders are born evil. Well, Tanar'ri and Baatezu aren't exactly 'born', but you get the idea. They can change later, a lot did, but the majority of them will always be there to corrupt races and cause trouble in any setting where they exist, and frankly it's hard to consider a setting without chromatic dragons and fiends a core one. How do you keep them uninfluential in your games?

 

[MDK]

I wish I had the right to take offense to that last one. Sadly I can only confirm>.> Moving on...

Yes I'm pulling on generic assumptions and prejudices here; if you like I can paste the text I have on orcish culture so you can see how little they actually have in common with either race, but it's a bit of a read

Now hold that thought for a moment. Plenty of dragons and outsiders are born evil. Well, Tanar'ri and Baatezu aren't exactly 'born', but you get the idea. They can change later, a lot did, but the majority of them will always be there to corrupt races and cause trouble in any setting where they exist, and frankly it's hard to consider a setting without chromatic dragons and fiends a core one.

Well I never claimed my home campaign to be a core setting
Largely speaking, Tana'ri and Baatezu don't exist in my campaign; instead there is the Shadow plane, sometimes (largely mistaken but not quite) known as the Dream plane or the plane of nightmares, where demons dwell. Demons are not necersarily evil either, but they ARE chaotic to the core, and do not necessarily care for the things inhabitants of the Prime plane care for.
I use no such distinction as chromatic or metallic dragon other than as a biological reference (which includes crystaline dragons); metallic dragons are not necesarily good, non-metallic dragons are not necesarily evil (though the tendency is there). White dragons have Int 4, judge potential mates by the seize of their hoard, will happily sacrifice their young in order to protect said hoard and will generally be kicked out of the nest after attempted theft or sneak away never to return of the theft was succesfull.
Black dragons are dumb (Int5), take delight in abusive language, and defend their territory as part of their treasure. Females tend to stay put raising their young and improving their lair, males tend travel more looking for mates.
Blue dragond are reclusive and very fond of magic, the stranger the better, and will happily trade for obscure or unique items, regardless of how usefull it actually is.
Yellow dragons are friendly and playfull, and curious to a fault.
Saphire dragons are wise and regal, with a detached air, and ignore what they consider to be petty squabbles between good and evil, law and chaos.
Silver dragons are kind and helpfull, copper dragons are decidedly not. All of these are generic notions though, and the alignment listed for any race is the main tendency, not a rule they must all adhere to. Yes, there are many, many entities seeking to enslave, corrupt, torture or otherwise abuse other, but none are BORN that way as a default. In my campaign, that is; as always, YMMV.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Mensa requires 140? That's new to me.

I'm not Mensa material. I merely went into a gifted program. I read that you needed 150 to get into Mensa, but you know what they say about what you read online

Need not be considdered is where things go wrong, you do know that right?
But even so, someone with IQ65 (int 3 by your reckoning) is rather smarter than a chimp.

Yeah. Allowances must be made in a system where a character could have an Int as low as 3, while a dog has an Int of 2.

 

[nijineko]

i suggest that if you get a large group of caster capable together, and then let them breed, the local demographic will get skewed in favor of casters. especially if they keep bringing in fresh blood. and in fact, that has actually happened at least five times in greyhawk (d&d default setting) history that i can think of off the top of my head. the first one that i'm thinking of took over and unified the world but failed to respond quickly enough to a disaster and wound up effectively offing themselves. the second got wiped out along with their patron by another group and their patron. the third also self-destructed. and the forth and fifth blew each other off the map.

so, even within the context of the history of d&d, attempting to build a widespread magi-tech society only lasts for so long. however, some of them have lasted for several thousand years before eventually self-destructing or running afoul of an enemy.

 

[Dozen]

Well I never claimed my home campaign to be a core setting

Ah. So, you've gone through all that trouble and tell me why my point would be moot in an irrelevant setting to make me ask and give you an excuse to talk about your irrelevant setting, is what you're saying. I'm less annoyed than I am impressed. Well done.

 

[MDK]

I'm not Mensa material. I merely went into a gifted program. I read that you needed 150 to get into Mensa, but you know what they say about what you read online

*grin* Yea, especially as most of today's tests don't even go beyond 145
Mensa has the normal minimum of 130, but wether or not someone wants to become a member is entirely their own deciscion of course.

[/quote]Yeah. Allowances must be made in a system where a character could have an Int as low as 3, while a dog has an Int of 2. [/QUOTE]

True

 

[MDK]

Ah. So, you've gone through all that trouble and tell me why my point would be moot in an irrelevant setting to make me ask and give you an excuse to talk about your irrelevant setting, is what you're saying. I'm less annoyed than I am impressed. Well done.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression of talking about an official campaign like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, although I'm not entirely sure how that makes my points irrelevant. You are however correct that we've gone way off topic, so I'll stop here.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

A few great contributions to this thread.

I like the comparison to university students. In a culture where this is an available option to those ambitious and qualified enough to enter, those who meet the criteria receive the education and advancements that come along with. This Crafter middle class is about what I was imagining, with all members of society benefiting from what they produce.

I'm assuming a Lord or the heroes being the one's in charge of seeing the distribution of magical items to benefit society at large to prevent hording and elitism. While that would not be the case in all scenarios, I'd imagine if at least one group were willing to make the knowledge and products available to all, they'd hedge out competition. (Consider if a freeware program for learning a new language was released as good as a program you had to pay for, or work hard to receive. The free version would run rampant, and beat out the competition. Imperfect analogy but it's what comes to mind this late in the evening.)

I'm not sure if there is a direct corrolation between IQ scores and D&D INT scores, and I know it doesn't factor in Wisdom and Charisma. The previous mentioned mob boss may have excelled in Wisdom and Charisma, to make up for the less than impressive INT score.