Magic In A Vaguely Realistic "Real World"

[Umbran]

I am not sure the details of the magical system are apt to be the interesting bits.

What does the world look like? I think that depends more on how people react, rather than what they can engineer to do with newfound power. How do the world's religions react? How does humanity deal with its racist tendencies, its fears of replacement, and its outright ignorance? How do governments react to new threats that had clearly completely gone without notice... for centuries?

Those reactions will shape the world more than the details of exactly how magic works. IMHO.

 

[GMMichael]

Lawsuits over freedom of speech would be sure to follow . . .

Meh. I bet lawsuits would become a thing of the past once people realize they can use magic to solve their problems and/or create the money that they wanted in the first place.

Also, science (and most intellectual disciplines) would quickly be renamed Quackery, given all the years that they've been implying that magic doesn't exist.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I am not sure the details of the magical system are apt to be the interesting bits.

What does the world look like? I think that depends more on how people react, rather than what they can engineer to do with newfound power. How do the world's religions react? How does humanity deal with its racist tendencies, its fears of replacement, and its outright ignorance? How do governments react to new threats that had clearly completely gone without notice... for centuries?

Those reactions will shape the world more than the details of exactly how magic works. IMHO.

Ugh You’re all great and I’ll respond to everyone later but I wanted to respond to at least one post now.

I agree with you, Umbran, though I think we can’t ignore questions like “what can capitalism do with it”, because @Fanaelialae is right about companies shaping how the public will ultimately react.

But the short term will occur before those companies have a chance to influence public opinion significantly, so your question have to be answered for as well.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether you want a story to be generally optimistic or pessimistic. “Realism” as a center point of truth between the two is, IMO, wholly mythical, so there isn’t a right answer.

I think people would largely accept the Hidden Folk (other races), if the Rangers do a good job of making sure folks know that they’re are just folks, at the end of the day. I also think that if humans encounter other intelligence that we can actually share a meal with and discuss art, it will make us better, not just cause us to redirect our xenophobia into the aliens. There will be movements in opposition to this, “Earth for Humanity!” Types, and the like, but they’ll be a (possibly dangerous and thus useful as villains) minority.

I’m sure others feel it will go the opposite way.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I think people would largely accept the Hidden Folk (other races), if the Rangers do a good job of making sure folks know that they’re are just folks, at the end of the day. I also think that if humans encounter other intelligence that we can actually share a meal with and discuss art, it will make us better, not just cause us to redirect our xenophobia into the aliens. There will be movements in opposition to this, “Earth for Humanity!” Types, and the like, but they’ll be a (possibly dangerous and thus useful as villains) minority.

I’m sure others feel it will go the opposite way.

I am much more pessimistic about this. The "best" thing about magical beings is that we have no shared history to foster hatred. We don't have anti-elves around because there are no elves to blame. I am pretty sure some of the xenophobic arguments like "the X steals our jobs" will sound too silly when applied to semi-magical, rare creatures, to be considered even by the... enlightenment-challenged people. So, unless there is a significant number of them, and they start gaining some visibility, I don't fear openly violent acts toward them.

However, you will have people who will them as an opportunity. I am pretty sure there would be a market for human fights to the death on TV if it was legal to kill people for money. As long as Alfar and Shifters are not specifically granted a new status, they are property. They'd be protected in some places by laws against cruelty against animals, but as long as some places allow rooster fights and dog fights, there will be places to allow Shifter fights (and TV shows broadcasting them to an interested and affluent audience].

Also, you mentionned in your earlier post that magical ancestries people had a "home world". This was just alluded, but... should this territory be accessible (magic portals?)

(a) it would be unclaimed land, some country could actually claim this territories to be colonized, as they are not protected by treaties, and... if magic is not über-powerful, a few military demonstrations will make the fey king more welcoming toward granting tracts of lands and welcome their new human overlord.

(b) it would have its share of mundane resources that could be traded for and a world-sized landfill. Dumping wastes has never been easier, with just a few Alfar to complain (but who are they to complain). I can even envision a company making money in "recycling" nuclear waste by planeshifting them into the feywild, and having no qualm about that.

[OK, I tend to turn everything into grimdark, I can't help it, but maybe you could make villains out of that]

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I am much more pessimistic about this. The "best" thing about magical beings is that we have no shared history to foster hatred. We don't have anti-elves around because there are no elves to blame. I am pretty sure some of the xenophobic arguments like "the X steals our jobs" will sound too silly when applied to semi-magical, rare creatures, to be considered even by the... enlightenment-challenged people. So, unless there is a significant number of them, and they start gaining some visibility, I don't fear openly violent acts toward them.

However, you will have people who will them as an opportunity. I am pretty sure there would be a market for human fights to the death on TV if it was legal to kill people for money. As long as Alfar and Shifters are not specifically granted a new status, they are property. They'd be protected in some places by laws against cruelty against animals, but as long as some places allow rooster fights and dog fights, there will be places to allow Shifter fights (and TV shows broadcasting them to an interested and affluent audience].

Also, you mentionned in your earlier post that magical ancestries people had a "home world". This was just alluded, but... should this territory be accessible (magic portals?)

(a) it would be unclaimed land, some country could actually claim this territories to be colonized, as they are not protected by treaties, and... if magic is not über-powerful, a few military demonstrations will make the fey king more welcoming toward granting tracts of lands and welcome their new human overlord.

(b) it would have its share of mundane resources that could be traded for and a world-sized landfill. Dumping wastes has never been easier, with just a few Alfar to complain (but who are they to complain). I can even envision a company making money in "recycling" nuclear waste by planeshifting them into the feywild, and having no qualm about that.

[OK, I tend to turn everything into grimdark, I can't help it, but maybe you could make villains out of that]

While I hate grimdark with a fiery passion normally reserved for things that matter, a lot of that is great fodder for villainous entities trying to do messed up stuff for heroes to stop.

The dumping trash and taking land thing might work a few times once knowledge has really spread, but the thing is that Crossroads can be hard to find, moving troops through en masse is even harder, and, for instance, the Alfar King is going to be either the actual god Frey, someone like The Morrigan or Mannanan mac Lyr, or if they are just an Alfar King, they still have an army of warriors, shamans, etc, armed with enchanted weapons.

But someone will likely try.

As for making people property, I doubt it. The law doesn’t actually specify humans, and the Hidden folk are very obviously people. Legal death arenas aren’t likely, IMO. Illegal ones, however, are a different story.

Especially once you look at the less human looking ancestries, like trolls.

*trolls have appearance related to their environment of birth, but are nearly always much bigger than humans, long of limb, and look monstrous. Again, they aren’t dnd trolls.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I can’t believe I missed the legal issues issue. Because THAT is as everyday as it gets.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Meh. I bet lawsuits would become a thing of the past once people realize they can use magic to solve their problems and/or create the money that they wanted in the first place.

Also, science (and most intellectual disciplines) would quickly be renamed Quackery, given all the years that they've been implying that magic doesn't exist.

Almost certainly not, unless the magic is so powerful as to make the average person an archmage. People with magic are still people. IMO, it would result in more laws and legalities, not less.

As for science being considered quackery, also not likely unless magic can replace your cell phone, computer, and TV. That's not the vibe I'm getting from this. It seems like in this scenario, magic and science largely compliment each other. There are likely things that are easier to accomplish with science, while other things would be easier with magic. Really, I think science would end up pulling magic under its umbrella in the long run, although there'd almost certainly be resistance at first. Especially since it was stated that magic still has to abide by the laws of physics.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Almost certainly not, unless the magic is so powerful as to make the average person an archmage. People with magic are still people. IMO, it would result in more laws and legalities, not less.

As for science being considered quackery, also not likely unless magic can replace your cell phone, computer, and TV. That's not the vibe I'm getting from this. It seems like in this scenario, magic and science largely compliment each other. There are likely things that are easier to accomplish with science, while other things would be easier with magic. Really, I think science would end up pulling magic under its umbrella in the long run, although there'd almost certainly be resistance at first. Especially since it was stated that magic still has to abide by the laws of physics.

Precisely my thought.

In the future, even the fairly near future, there would be Thaumatology programs at universities, as well as schools of Alchemy (basically, principles of enhancing magic and tech by combining them, with subdivisions for things like transmutation and bio-chemical magics), etc.

There are also the “soft” magics, which are not as scientific, but even they have some applications in tech (such as using spirit magic principles to create tech that links a mind to a device without any sort of implant of the like).

So, yeah, magic doesn’t replace tech, it enhances and compliments it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would think...

Those that can learn it will. If it is truly systematic, it will be formally taught, possibly even in schools. It may even be considered a new branch of science.

The Internet will lead to rapid dissemination of a least the easier stuff...regardless of whether it’s good or bad juju. The Dark Web will be truly dangerous.

Magic will be used to enhance everyday life as much as is practicable- fashion, sports, entertainment, housekeeping, healthcare, education, policing, the drug trade, prostitution, gambling, porn and espionage will be touched at the very least.

Love the point about the Internet, especially.

Assuming that things don't go post apocalyptic due to religious war or the like, I would expect another tech boom - well, a magi-tech boom.

It sounds like magic can be used to solve certain problems more easily than science (your example of a star drive that converts photons into exotic particles). And it is compatible with tech. Therefore, I think that as soon as it became available tech companies would immediately begin examining whether projects they've had to shelf due to engineering limitations might now be possible thanks to magic. Those with the skills would almost certainly be in extremely high demand, which would in turn increase demand for education in the field (the T-field, pun intended). It wouldn't just be people who have a genuine interest in magic who want to learn, but also those driven by more material and social interests. Years down the line, you'd have a field where demand would likely still be strong, but saturated with second-rate magicians, where many companies will have learned the hard way that not just anyone with a BS of T-Field Studies is equivalent.

I believe it's likely that with the exposure that the big tech companies could provide (and their vested interest in having the public gain an acceptance of magi-tech) that magic and "demihumans" would rapidly gain acceptance from the general population. People might be nervous in the short term, but once Shpoogle and AceBook begin touting the amazing conveniences of magi-tech, the majority of people will likely come to embrace it. I mean, who wouldn't want a TV that will find the show you want to watch, without any channel surfing, and without you even knowing it? Some hate is likely to exist of course, but probably only within a minority. There will likely be people who claim all sorts of things, like magic gives you cancer or causes you to become possessed, but especially if big tech stands against them (in the interest of preventing the spread of bigotry and misinformation of course) they'll be relegated to standing on street corners and shouting. Lawsuits over freedom of speech would be sure to follow, but after the years it would take to resolve those general acceptance would already be firmly rooted, with nothing short of mass catastrophe being likely to dislodge it thereafter.

This is full of great thoughts for the future of the world for sure!

The setting actually assumes that in the semi-distant future, magitech has outpaced any projections of where tech would be, so that in 2230, there are space colonies, starships, orbital cities, etc.

Have you read any of the Rivers of London novels by Ben Aaronovitch? Police procedurals set (mostly) in modern-day London, with a codified magic system, where the supernatural is rapidly becoming more and more prominent in everyday life.

Also, they're excellent books, with loads of geeky references. Like when they hear a rhythmic pounding while searching London's sewers:

“We can’t get out. They are coming!”
I’ll pick that up sometime and check it out!

And what happens when "people" starts thinking in term of cold being a lack of kinetic energy at the atomic level and not as a thing in itself? Does magic change as well? It's a real question because (a) I think education level progressed greatly over the last century or so, and "average" worldview on many things has probably changed, so does magic follows the majority or is magic "individualistic" as in "as long as I think Cold is a thing I can create cold"?

is it a matter of education, or is perception simply more powerful than intellectual knowledge? You can feel the cold like a force when you open a door in winter. It manifests as wind and snow and ice. So, I don’t think it is so easily changed, but also a premise is that cold is a “force” in our lives, and thus a force in the magic of the universe, but that isn’t just “us” as in mortal people, it’s also the gods, primordial dragons, etc. The idea of cold is a fundamental “thought” at the start of the universe.
Also, anyone who grows up around magic will know cold to be a type of magic, and thus contribute to the idea of cold as a type of magic.

If magic is powerful enough to be useful (as in, competing with tech ; if you need ten years of training to cast a light spells, people will carry a flashlight instead of going the magic route), it will get incorporated into formal training. A new branch of science will develop to determine the strenghts, limit and behaviour of magic. You can't have a scientific principles shattering discovery and have the scentific community ignore it.

The other community reacting quickly will be lawmakers. Whether to ban it or to regulate its uses, magic will be incorporated into every aspect of life (is it cheating to cast a spell to jump farther at the Olympics? To have the wind whispers answers at an exam?).

Great questions! And the answers will probably vary from place to place, and change over time.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What can a person with some minor magical ability get away with in a time when only about 1-2% of the population knows about magic?