Magic Item Creation feats and extra requirements

Jay Lofstead

First Post
Something that I have found a bit disturbing as a DM is players that have the item creation feats using the DMG as a mail order catalog to browse for what they want to create next. The thing that bothers me is where does the character get the knowledge to create the items the player reads about? Is it inherent in Knowledge Arcana? Do they have to find an item and reverse engineer it (or get a manual describing how to create it)? The rules seem to be silent on this (leaving it to be a roleplaying requirement, if anything). The characters all have their knowledge arcana maxed out (eliminating that as a way I could readily limit things, if need be).

Has anyone required players to have their characters research any new item they want rather than going through the DMG for what they want next? Is anyone aware of something I have missed?
 

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Jay Lofstead said:
Something that I have found a bit disturbing as a DM is players that have the item creation feats using the DMG as a mail order catalog to browse for what they want to create next. The thing that bothers me is where does the character get the knowledge to create the items the player reads about? Is it inherent in Knowledge Arcana? Do they have to find an item and reverse engineer it (or get a manual describing how to create it)? The rules seem to be silent on this (leaving it to be a roleplaying requirement, if anything). The characters all have their knowledge arcana maxed out (eliminating that as a way I could readily limit things, if need be).

Has anyone required players to have their characters research any new item they want rather than going through the DMG for what they want next? Is anyone aware of something I have missed?

The knowledge needed to create the items is inherent in the appropriate item creation feat, just like the knowledge of how to kick butt is inherent to the whirlwind attack feat...

A DM could ammend this and make all sorts of other requirements, but the players should be informed of this before they take the feat. Also, they should be part of the decision; it is the players' game, too. DM rule by fiat is never popular.

-Fletch!
 

Ya, the knowledge is in the feat. You can require power components or increase the base price of some items if you feel it's hurting the game.

Another thing you can do is tell your PCs to stop using the DMG. It's not for them anyway. Make them create/invent their own items depending on their spells and abilities.
 

It's DM's choice.

You could make various tasks harder or easier depending. The caster level of the item could modify the dc of the knowledge arcana roll. Maybe 5 points of DC per required caster level to know off the cuff how to create an item. Knowing what something could do, or was made for might be significantly simpler. The use of spells that carefully examined the deowmers of magic items might greatly increase the ability of one to understand how a magic item is put together. Large amounts of time accumulating and researching how this problems were solve, or conversely they could spend large amounts of time gathering materials to perform the experiments themselves.

If they bitch about it saying, "That's not realistic!" Say fine, go build me a watch. I know how they work "off the cuff" but I would not relish having to build one. If they say "That's not what the rules say!" You can point out the rules don't say.

Besides stuff like that is easy light weight stuff to run is fun, can serve to space out stuff providing time for larger plots to develope with a minimum of hand waving, provide opportunities to develope NPC's and locals. Now if one doesn't wish to do that, which is fine, you've always got the option to absract it to a few die rolls and a well placed, "...Meanwhile, back at the ranch."

I just try to do whatever I think will make for the best story in every circumstance. Which will occasionally involve, when there has been miscommunication between myself and a player, me saying, "Just trust me."
 

Jay Lofstead said:
Has anyone required players to have their characters research any new item they want rather than going through the DMG for what they want next?

I haven't, nor has anyone else in my group. The knowledge required to create a magic item is part of the item creation feat itself, as others have already stated. You don't really need to do research, as you have already done it.

But, there are times when a player might want to create a funky item, one that can't be found in the DMG or any other supplement. In those particular cases, the player not only needs to decide what kinds of effects they are going for, but they also need to decide what spells to use to make the item. It isn't your job to tell them what spells to use either. It's up to them.

For example, say you have a player that wants to make a magic item that adds a +4 deflection bonus to AC and allows the wielder of the item to inflict 1d4 points of force damage with their unarmed attacks. Unreasonable? Not at all. But here's the kicker. The player wants to use Magic Missle to make the item. Well, magic missle is a [Force] spell after all, so that does explain the deflection bonus to AC, which is a force effect, as well as the additional damage inflicted with unarmed attacks, which is also a force effect. So, technically, Magic Missle fills the prerequisites. But does it really? By sheer spell level, it's doubtful, since its only a 1st level spell.

Now remember this though; it's not your job to tell them if something will work or not. So, what do you do? You should figure out what the finished item will actually do, regardless of what they might think it will do, then let them build the item. When they are finished, which will no doubt take very little time because they were working with such a low level spell, they will realize that the item doesn't exactly do what they had envisioned. For example, their item may very well indeed grant them the extra damage with unarmed attacks, but it might not give them the AC bonus. But, are they stuck with a worthless item? Nope. It's still useable, and even if nobody in the party has a use for it, it's still useful to someone else. It's a magic item after all, so it's still worth some money. At the very least, they player can sell it and make some cash.

To give you an idea of how I do this myself, take the example I gave above. Basically, if the player asks me whether or not their character thinks they can do it, I'll say "You're pretty sure you can pull it off.", or "It's possible.", or "You're not very sure.", or something along those lines. I'll also give them a better idea of whether or not they can pull it off depending on how much relative game time they spend researching, drawing up magical blueprints, whatever, of the item they want to make.

I don't have a set system, but I also don't hamstring the players with unnecessary skill checks, additional cash spendatures, or higher XP costs. I just tend to go with my gut on this. My goal, however, is to avoid making the players waste their time on a useless item. For example, if they don't do enough research or put enough thought into an item, and I know for a fact that they can't make it, then it's my turn. They make the item, then I decide what it does. But that's not a bad thing at all, because all of my items totaly kick butt, so it's pretty much a win-win scenario. :)
 

Crothian said:
Another thing you can do is tell your PCs to stop using the DMG. It's not for them anyway. Make them create/invent their own items depending on their spells and abilities.

I can't imagine why I would want to adjudicate a custom magic item every time. What a horrid idea. No thanks. Go ahead and hit the books, I say. I see no way in which that could possibly cause my players to have less fun.
 

Dr_Rictus said:


I can't imagine why I would want to adjudicate a custom magic item every time. What a horrid idea. No thanks. Go ahead and hit the books, I say. I see no way in which that could possibly cause my players to have less fun.

It was a suggestion. The orginal poster didn't like his players using it they way they were.

Adjucating a custom magical item would be great as it gets the players to be creative. It allows acharacters to customize items that perfectly fit them. It's a great asset to this game.
 


Jay Lofstead said:
Something that I have found a bit disturbing as a DM is players that have the item creation feats using the DMG as a mail order catalog to browse for what they want to create next...

Just be glad that your players don't also expect that they can design any arbitrary item they like using the "suggested prices for new items" table in the back of the DMG. Judging from these boards most players and DMs also think that's supposed to be allowed by default, as well.
 

materials

What sort of materials do you make your PC's get in order to make an item? I mean, aside from the MW whateveritis for A&A, where does that gold go? Grind it up and sprinkle it on a brooch? Do they have to be in a major city to be able to get the esoteric materials necessary?

According to the DMG, you can create items anywhere you can prep spells, so, theoretically, you can make items while travelling, as long as you walk no more than eight hours a day and do no fighting & such in between crafting sessions in camp. Question is, where do you get the magical super glue and crushed tinsel required to create those Goggles of Spliff Eyes or whatever's ticklin' yer fancy?
 

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