Magic items and balance

[Aulirophile]

So I'm a DM in 4e that likes giving out nifty magic items, on basically the exact scale set in the DMG (this might have something to do with constantly putting my 4 person party in 5 person encounters). Recently I started playing in a group with a DM I don't know, who has never DMed 4e before. He wants to hand out magic items randomly. For instance, giving us a Falchion and a Light Shield, when no one in the party uses either. He isn't even giving the right number of items/level.

How badly is this going to effect the group? We have a Bard that I am going to encourage to take Transfer Enchantment ritual when we get to level 4. Also considering talking to the DM about using the DMG2 rules for low-magic worlds and natural bonuses. I don't want to bother if it isn't a big deal, it just seems as if the suggested encounter levels are based around the group having magic weapons and armor. If it is going to be a big deal, I'd rather talk about it now rather then later.

 

[Nifft]

It is kind of a big deal: unless you can use Transfer Enchantment effectively, you're getting ~20% of the loot that the designers assumed you'd have.

Ask the DM if you can quest for specific items -- this ought to work out just like a standard 4e Wishlist, but you'll be handing him plot hooks as well, and DMs like plot hooks.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Doctor Proctor]

It will be a big deal... My current DM hasn't really followed the DMG guidelines on treasure parcels thus far, and we're having some trouble. 1/3 of our party (at level 4) didn't have any type of magical weapon or implement, and it was really starting to show. Additionally, a good chunk of the party doesn't have any magic armor, and I don't think anyone has a neck slot item. When we're fighting in "hard" encounters, we're typically getting our butts handed to us because we're being hit constantly, and several party members are really spotty about hitting the monsters.

So far we've been doing okay, and I think our DM is starting to correct his mistake, but it's made some encounters very difficult when they should've been a lot easier. It would only become even more pronounced as we got higher in level.

I would talk to your DM outside of the game about this, and explain the issues and the underlying math. That was the problem with our DM, I think, was that he wasn't paying attention to the math involved in the way magic items are being given out. For example, he didn't like Masterwork armor and was going to make it like, impossible to get, until we explained the difference in AC between +6 Plate and +6 Godplate, and the fact that it would mean I would be getting on like a 4.

As for the DM giving "random" items? Well, if he's gonna do that, then he needs to understand that the party needs to be able to transfer enchantments and such. If no one uses a Falchion, fine...as long as someone in town can transfer that to a Bastard Sword (or whatever other weapon is used) for a nominal fee then that's okay. If you're forced to sell the item though, then that's essentially like giving you an item that's 5 levels lower.

 

[Elric]

eamon has a (typically excellent) thread about how to change the rules to make giving random treasure feasible. See: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...re-system-mostly-random-loot.html#post5001740

In three lines:
1. The DM randomizes (most) loot.
2. Items are sold at half price, instead of at 20% of list price.
3. All treasure parcels containing magic items are raised by one level.

 

[Turtlejay]

At low levels you probably won't notice this much until you crit (roll crit die. . .oh. . .wait, nevermind). The more you play, the more you miss out on the cool stuff items can do. I find I notice my Grasping Longsword's ability more than the +1 to hit and damage that it does over my last weapon. I notice the Lucky Charm when it turns a miss into a hit over the times that +1 to FRW would make a difference.

As for giving you things you can't use. . .it can add to versimilitude, but what good is that if frustration is also pretty high. It is cool to find appropriate items on baddies if your DM compensates by giving you ways to ultimately use it, but if he doesn't, then he is just highlighting your shortage more than anything.

Did this DM come from 3.5? I think the loot rules are a little less fast and loose in 4e. I also think 4e players tend to feel more entitled to loot. Try not to come across as deserving if you do choose to bring this up. There is a transition that needs to be made. 4e's math does depend on magic more and more as you level up.

Jay

 

[MrMyth]

It is not a big deal - even before the Transfer Enchantment rituals, the rules were designed to account for this. Specifically so, in fact - this is why you usually find items of level+1 to level +4. When that level +4 item isn't useful, 20% value gets you a magic item of around your own level.

Thus, there is the tradeoff between powerful but random items, vs weaker items specialized for party use.

This isn't to say a game where every item is usable is the end of the world... but I wouldn't worry too much about some random items appearing, or feel it is a big enough issue to bring to the GM unless you actively feel that every single item is useless, and the party is directly suffering because of it.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

It is not a big deal - even before the Transfer Enchantment rituals, the rules were designed to account for this. Specifically so, in fact - this is why you usually find items of level+1 to level +4. When that level +4 item isn't useful, 20% value gets you a magic item of around your own level.

Thus, there is the tradeoff between powerful but random items, vs weaker items specialized for party use.

This isn't to say a game where every item is usable is the end of the world... but I wouldn't worry too much about some random items appearing, or feel it is a big enough issue to bring to the GM unless you actively feel that every single item is useless, and the party is directly suffering because of it.

Eh, yes and no. 20% value gets you an item of 5 levels lower. Since magic items range from level +1 to level +4, then this means that if you end up selling the majority of the items you find then the DM is effectively handing you items of level -4 to level -1. That's a bit of an issue, since level -4 is almost a full + behind when it's one of your main 3 slots.

Now yes, transfer enchantment has some ability to fix this...but only some. If the DM hands out a magic shield, and no one in the party uses a shield or even has the feat to do so, then that item is useless and must be sold/traded/disenchanted. Similarly there can be issues of say, a Primal party receiving a suit of Scale mail with an enchantment that's limited to Scale and Plate only. Again, transfer enchantment is useless because everyone is in light armor, and the enchantment on the armor cannot be given to light armor.

So yeah, if this is happening a LOT, it's a problem. If it's just the occasional useless item, then that's probably okay. But really, it probably shouldn't be happening at all when it comes to the main items. The DM shouldn't be handing out Heavy Blade weapons with Heavy Blade only enchantments if he knows that no one in the party uses a Heavy Blade. A generic +2 Magic Weapon would be fine, as that can be transferred though. Repeatedly giving out useless items, especially for the "main" items, will only lead to player frustration and an overall weakening of the party.

 

[Aulirophile]

We're about 1/2 way through level 2 and have 3 magic items. I think two of them could be transferred, if he lets us have the ritual that is. The third is an Orb, which I don't believe can be. We don't have a Wizard.

Just checking the money real quick, end of level two we should have gotten 1,760gp in value and 8 magic items for a 5 person party. We're at 3 and 700gp. Certainly if this continues even clever transfer/buy/sell work arounds aren't going to keep us apace.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

Experience shows that item wishlists increase the fun players have with their characters. Fun is good for the game. The DM can still keep it scarce.
I would recommend that all players tell the DM about 2 items they would like to find. One in their enchantment range (level 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20) and the other one a range higher. Call it a prayer in-game. This really is the best method to deal with the problem.
Also, the DM should read the DMG. What he does is not recommended.

 

[DevP]

I believe there's some house rules out there (somewhere?) that basically lets you replicate the expected bonuses from magic items without bothering with actual magic items. You could do something like this so that you remain competitive vs encounters of your level, but let your DM continue to do loot his way, if that's what he wants.

This might be a better frame for it: "let's patch the system to let us be encounter-suitable and fit your style of loot" rather than "oy DM give us more loot".