Magic items are finally rare !

[HP Dreadnought]

Yes, if they just reduced the number of slots to something like:

Head (1)
Neck (1)
Ring (2)
Armor/Clothing/Robe (1)
Cloak (1)
Boots (1)
Gauntlets (1)
Bracers (1)
Other Gear (3)

That would go a long way towards fixing the problem if EVERY magic item fit into one of those slots.

You could carry more than that. . . just make switching out what is readied cost actions in combat. The only issue there is too much non-combat stuff in the other gear category. But that's easy to fix just by not allowing them into the system.

I expect based on the MIC, that swift and immediate actions (or their 4E counterparts) will become a valuable commodity. Basically you can activate one item a round for free. . . but you'll have lots of things you're wanting to activate all the time.

 

[Drammattex]

I'm a huge fan of magic items that grow with the character (i.e. Weapons of Legacy type stuff).

Fighters walking over to Best Buy to get the latest & greatest dragonslaying sword is lame. Fighters who defeat an enemy to obtain a legendary sword which grows in power as they come to understand it and further its legend... that is cool.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not against PCs making magical items (some of the coolest ideas for magical gear were necessity of a PC adventurer) just the necessity of NEEDING powerful items to stay effective. A high level PC must devote tons to "keeping up with the Jones'" or his AC, saves, and to hit will become outclassed my monsters of the appropriate "CR" to the point that if the PCs are struck without their magical gear (Mordy's Disjunction) they are several levels now out of their league.

I'd love to see the game return to cloaks and armor +5 being rare, legendary, and worthy of boast, not an adventuring necessity for 20th level fighters...

 

[Aenghus]

I'm not against PCs making magical items (some of the coolest ideas for magical gear were necessity of a PC adventurer) just the necessity of NEEDING powerful items to stay effective. A high level PC must devote tons to "keeping up with the Jones'" or his AC, saves, and to hit will become outclassed my monsters of the appropriate "CR" to the point that if the PCs are struck without their magical gear (Mordy's Disjunction) they are several levels now out of their league.

I'd love to see the game return to cloaks and armor +5 being rare, legendary, and worthy of boast, not an adventuring necessity for 20th level fighters...

Well, I thought they might remove +x bonus weapons and armour, but mention of +6 magical implement makes this less likely. The only way I can think of to have these items still present while not messing up the progression curve is if PCs automatically confer +x bonuses to the class related equipment they are using in a level-related way.

This would allow magic weapons, armour and other implements to have useful but not compulsory magical powers and still be useable at all levels, moving away from the annoying "discarding of old item in favour of a better +x one" that haunted all previous editions of D&D. Retaining the finding of +x items would also retain the upgrade problem.

 

[brehobit]

I think your predictions are mostly off. Paying XP for attuning magic items for example is pretty similar to paying xp for creating a magic item. If they don't want the latter, they won't do the former.

Magic Items granting bonuses and penalties to compensate doesn't sound like something they would use as a standard. Espeically with the "per encounter" balance focus, they will probably want to avoid the possibility to use an item effectively in one encounter and balancing this with long-term penalties.

I think balance will be more focused on "opportunity" cost. You can use power X, but you need to spend one of your precious actions (and everything other than a free action is precious), which you could have used for ability Y.

Ah,
I think you are confusing my "predictions" (#1 and #2) with the things I _think_ they should be doing (all the rest). I think the need to use actions for most items and the reduction in slots are both very likely indeed.

Mark

 

[Remathilis]

Well, I thought they might remove +x bonus weapons and armour, but mention of +6 magical implement makes this less likely. The only way I can think of to have these items still present while not messing up the progression curve is if PCs automatically confer +x bonuses to the class related equipment they are using in a level-related way.

This would allow magic weapons, armour and other implements to have useful but not compulsory magical powers and still be useable at all levels, moving away from the annoying "discarding of old item in favour of a better +x one" that haunted all previous editions of D&D. Retaining the finding of +x items would also retain the upgrade problem.

See, I don't think it would throw the calculus off too much if the game had a scaling AC and Defense that kept pace with challenge (like SAGA kinda does). The +X would be gravy (or, I'm X better than everyone else thanks to my magic pants) that a PC would have as a reward, not need to acquire to remain competitive.

The trick to making that work is to eliminate almost all stacking bonuses. You could get an AC 5 higher thanks to magic pants, but your magic shirt +5, magic ring +5, and magic underoo's +5 don't add in to produce a +20. It could be as easy as removing a number of bonus "types" (natural armor, sacred and competence spring to mind) so that the stacking amount is less.

As for X being level of user dependant, that would be an interesting way to go also.

 

[JohnSnow]

But the wealth by level system is used as a "fix" for this. In order to not screw game balance, DMs have to ensure not handing out enough or to little treasure, and the guidelines (and random treasure tables) ensure this.

Unlike skill ranks or number of feats, no mechanic explicitely ties your wealth to your level. There is no rule saying "a character of level n gains x gold pieces upon advancing to level n+1. These gold pieces must be spent immediately to enhance magic items or buy new magical item, or buy material components for spells."

Precisely. On the other hand, some of our fellow ENworlders, Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock and Russell Morrissey, have come up with a game supplement for d20 called Four Color to Fantasy which overlays a system for superpowers on to D&D. One of the suggestions is to award the character "hero points" that they can use to buy powers in lieu of giving them extra gold. They've done a pretty good job of coming up with a way to give superpowers to characters.

Why isn't a similar system built into D&D? If a 5th-level fighter is supposed to have a +1 sword, why not just state that the 5th-level figher gains an extra +1 to attack? If you eliminate the number bloat, the character just needs his attacks to be magical. If the numbers are necessary, why should they be wrapped up in the weapon and not the character?

The problem with Weapons of Legacy is that you had to sacrifice development to make the weapon "better." In my opinion, that should be a natural part of the character getting more powerful. Perhaps if you slay a Red Dragon (and you're the appropriate level), you can imbue your sword with the "flaming" characteristic. Magic items are to give the character mini power-ups between the "goodies" that come from levelling. When those goodies were less frequent, magic items were more necessary. Now that each level has something, and levelling up occurs relatively frequently, we don't need quite as many magic items that give the characters more power.

D&D is its own thing. One of the great things about D&D is that you and I can each refine it into the feel that we want. It would be a real shame to pick one appraoch and try to force everyone into it. It would also be a doomed effort.

Sorry if this is a derail, but I need to address this. People are always talking about how "D&D is its own brand of fantasy." In my opinion, the game's idiosyncracies are a large part of why so many people just start laughing at the words Dungeons & Dragons. That's why Dragonlance doesn't get the same treatment as The Lord of the Rings or even Eragon. Even people who read fantasy or play WoW often can't relate to it. And in my opinion, that's a bug, not a feature.

And 3e does have "one approach" that it "force(s) everyone into." It's called "over-the-top high fantasy." 3e D&D doesn't do anything else well. It can't be refined into "whatever feel people want" without MASSIVE houseruling. The opposite end of the fantasy scale is nearly impossible to do without rewriting classes, the magic system, the challenge system and nearly everything else. To my way of thinking, 4e should slide its default closer to the middle of the scale, so that the "wahoo" dial could be more easily turned "up" or "down" as people wanted.

And I still don't think any fantasy world should treat magic as technology. Magic as technology just doesn't feel magical anymore. And that's boring. And before you bring it up, IMO, the things that make Eberron work as a setting are the areas where magic isn't "ordinary," not the ones where it is.

 

[Kraydak]

Precisely. On the other hand, one of our fellow ENworlders, , has come up with a game supplement for d20 called Four Color to Fantasy which overlays a system for superpowers on to D&D. One of the suggestions is to award the character "hero points" that they can use to buy powers in lieu of giving them extra gold.

Why isn't that system built into D&D? If a 5th-level fighter is supposed to have a +1 sword, why not just state that the 5th-level figher gains an extra +1 to attack? If you eliminate the number bloat, the character just needs his attacks to be magical. If the numbers are necessary, why should they be wrapped up in the weapon and not the character?

Why have the +1 sword instead of an innate ability? Simple. People like loot. Loot is fun. Magic items aren't (and never will be) "cool". The act of looting and buying powerups, however, is both cool and fun. Why on earth would WotC cut out a very fun mechanic?!

 

[JohnSnow]

Why have the +1 sword instead of an innate ability? Simple. People like loot. Loot is fun. Magic items aren't (and never will be) "cool". The act of looting and buying powerups, however, is both cool and fun. Why on earth would WotC cut out a very fun mechanic?!

Why is buying powerups fun? Is it the vicarious thrill of wealth? To me it feels less fun and more like the crappy part of a gameshow. I get that choosing new powers as you go up in level is cool, but buying them? Not so much to me. It feels more like sitting in the dealer and grinding through the options list for my new car. But maybe I'm just weird.

Looting I get, I guess. Although it doesn't always feel very heroic when they're stripping the walls and curtains bare, heroes coming back with chests of gold IS cool. On the other hand, I'd like a system where burying a fallen comrade or honored foe with his gear wasn't utterly stupid.

What if you (the player) got to have the thrill of "buying" your powerups, but your character couldn't "buy them" just 'cuz he has gold? To me, that lets the player have the thrill of buying his powerups, but doesn't turn the character into a gold-hoarding powermonger. Or does everyone want to be like Batman and have all sorts of "wonderful toys?"

I guess what I'm asking is whether it's the act of spending the gold on "kewl powerz" or the ability to choose (and purchase) the custom powers you want from a list of options that you like?

Cuz if it's the former, by separating the wealth system from the power buy, you and I could BOTH have what we want.

 

[Kraydak]

Why is buying powerups fun? Is it the vicarious thrill of wealth? To me it feels less fun and more like the crappy part of a gameshow. I get that choosing new powers as you go up in level is cool, but buying them? Not so much to me. It feels more like sitting in the dealer and grinding through the options list for my new car. But maybe I'm just weird.

You've never (and your players have never) leafed through magic item lists dreaming about things you want your character to have? Note also that the list of magic items can be made much richer than class abilities. Having systems where you can combine or split ability picks, and having lists the lengths of magic item tables is, while technically doable, hard.

Looting I get, I guess. Although it doesn't always feel very heroic when they're stripping the walls and curtains bare, heroes coming back with chests of gold IS cool. On the other hand, I'd like a system where burying a fallen comrade or honored foe with his gear wasn't utterly stupid.

Well... if there is no gain for it, then burying fallen comrades with their gear is equivalent to burning money. It is stupid. If you want people to do it, you have to give them something in exchange... this isn't an issue for magic items, its an issue if there is any benefit to wealth at all.

What if you (the player) got to have the thrill of "buying" your powerups, but your character couldn't "buy them" just 'cuz he has gold? To me, that lets the player have the thrill of buying his powerups, but doesn't turn the character into a gold-hoarding powermonger. Or does everyone want to be like Batman and have all sorts of "wonderful toys?"

If there are lootable powerups (which, I believe we agree, are fun, and therefore should be in the game), then there will be a market for them. The currency may not be gold, but the market will be there. And, of course, the players will rapidly cease to care about any currency that cannot be used to purchase powerups, as will the people they are buying them from. (which brings us back to the thread a month back about what gold is useful for)

I guess what I'm asking is whether it's the act of spending the gold on "kewl powerz" or the ability to choose (and purchase) the custom powers you want from a list of options that you like?

Cuz if it's the former, by separating the wealth system from the power buy, you and I could BOTH have what we want.

For some reason (don't ask me why), I like loot. Looting is, inherently, fun. If you look at generic RPG type game design, I think you'll find a *lot* of people agree with me. Once you have useful loot, you have a market (baring the MMORPG concept of soul-bound items, with NPC item use not triggering the soulboundness for loot...). Separating wealth from power buy cripples my suspension of disbelief.